re: Tax credits for electric cars are a classic income transfer to the rich - WSJ

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Looks like Tesla's stock is taking a beating this morning so ...

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Yep. Deliveries were very slightly under expectations. That's the news. TSLA is almost all the way down to where it was last Thursday

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Looks like Tesla's stock is taking a beating this morning so ... investors are speaking on this. This is not like past drops. This one is different for Tesla.

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Wonder how Tesla will make it if these tax credits get rolled back.

Another swing and a miss policy by Oh Bummer

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You are also not factoring the length of use. My car is said to get 1,000,000 miles. One Million.(we shall see.)

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Let's say that you are an average American, and put 15,000 miles a year on that car. That's 67 years. Now, while a car can last 67 years, a battery may last 8-10 years, so you'll need to replace those at least 6 or 7 times.

Also, I expect you'd replace your front end components with bushings, hubs and bearings five to seven times, and a few items will burn up and/or fail, such as power items, speakers, sound systems, power windows, seats.

A million miles in those seats and you're going to need new carpeting and upholstery a few times. Probably a paint job a couple of times, too.

If you're the type to keep a car for a million miles, have fun!

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So, these mining processes are only used for electric cars???

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If there is a large scale shift to electric vehicles... then yes... a high percentage of the mining will be for electric vehicles.

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Dishonest at best. Are you suggesting the world stops using batteries all together?

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You mean like has been said for oil? Coal? So low and middle income America who is not able to purchase a 60,000 Tesla will have to settle on a small crapbox that is priced about the same as a Camry? Just so high and mighty libs can shift the pollution from Los Angeles to Poverty stricken areas rich in these metals?

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re lithium and nickel only mined for batteries?? Again, half the story

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Again. If there is a large scale shift to EV. Then yes the high percentage will.

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You are also not factoring the length of use. My car is said to get 1,000,000 miles. One Million.(we shall see.)

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Yea. Ok. Whatever.

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see you read one article on the cost of EV batteries, good for you. But like all biased media, you were told what they wanted you to believe, and not the big picture.

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It’s not one article Sherlock. And biased media? Against EV? Ok. Whatever.

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If the goal was to reduce pollution, then driving a used car is better, due to the pollution generated in the manufacturing process of an electric car.

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In the short term it is better. Hell, it might even be better over the useful life of the vehicle. But cars don't last forever, and at some point all the used cars were new cars.

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But it’s also true if you compare an electric car to a new conventional car as well, because of the rare earth minerals that are used in building an electric car

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I think the only "rare earth minerals" used in an electric vehicle are for the motors, and they're not particularly rare anyway. I don't have any data on the impact of mining these materials, so if you have some I'd love to see it.

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surprisingly, because they’re cleaner than the average power plant.

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This is just false. The best estimates place EV pollution on par with an ICE car that gets about 55mpg given the current mix of US power plant production. But here's the nice thing about EV's... for every power plant that is replaced with renewable energy, the fleet of EV's on the road produce less pollution. An ICE will always pollute the same.

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They will lead to to cleaner air in major cities, assuming broad adoption, but at the expense of other people, who live in the pollution path of the, let’s say, coal plant.

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A temporarily unfortunate result, for sure. But considering both fossil-fuel-burning cars and fossil-fuel-burning power plants must be replaced, where do you suggest we start?

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On a personal level, I don’t think electric cars are a viable option in the near or even midterm, because the battery paradigm, with the range issues, and the ensuing recharge times, which make them unworkable across vast stretches of America.

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I don't know how you're defining near or mid term, but obviously electric cars are a viable option for many people already. And a very large percentage of our driving needs are very "workable" by EVs.

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On a personal level, I don’t think electric cars are a viable option in the near or even midterm, because the battery paradigm, with the range issues, and the ensuing recharge times, which make them unworkable across vast stretches of America.

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Wait, what? There are Teslas all over the road that are going hundreds of miles between charges. Easily enough for a commute. Even on an 8-hour road trip, you'd probably only have to stop once to charge up. Plus, you can charge up at home, so most of the time you're actually saving trips to the gas station.

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They aren't wrong. Tax subsidies like this are stupid. Why not just cut the rates for everybody?

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Because then it wouldn't be a subsidy. Subsidies come in many forms and have many purposes, but generally governments use subsidies to guide industries and the economy/society as a whole in a particular direction. And we do this because free markets don't really have a goal aside from generating profits, whereas a government sometimes takes on the role of, you know, governing its citizens. This role sometimes involves encouraging them to spend money in a particular way. We did this (and continue to do this) with the petroleum industry, and with farming, and with etc etc.

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the tech is improving pretty quickly, so they are getting cheaper and better all the time

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Battery technology has stagnated. We’re still dealing with the same basic technology that we developed in the 70s.

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Spent batteries are recycled, the used cars are fitted with new ones and resold.

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I need to be more precise in my language. As the vehicles become less and less valuable, owners will get rid of their vehicles, rather than buy a new battery.

Because of the expense of replacing the battery, vehicles will depreciate more quickly, and have shorter lifetimes.

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Don't forget the financial components of that function. A more valuable vehicle is more likely to receive repairs that increase longevity.

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Sure, but this wasn’t a luxury car. Just an old taxi.

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Where do you live and who do you hang out with where people are shoving shite down your throat?

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It’s called turning the tv on.

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There are environmental impacts to nearly everything we do, and it's encouraging to see that some people are aware. Although it is sadly hilarious when the same people who spout off about the pollution caused by EV production just say "frick it" when it comes to burning fossil fuels.

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You know who spouts off about EV pollution vs other? People that encounter smug leftists droning on and on and on about how my G37 is killing the planet and their EV is powered by a magic cord and Elon musk made it out of ocean trash and recycled oil drums.

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You know that coal power plants emit the same stuff, right? And that there are methods to reduce emissions in either case?

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But coal is terrible remember. The spawn of satan runs these plants. And if you open one you will be bankrupt. So should there be a penaly on the same pollution from nickel and lithium mines? Like cap and trade? I know coal plants emit SO2. How? Pretty much every environmentalist in front of a microphone. However, the same said environmentalist praises EVs. And the mines emit tons of it too.

You know what they call demonizing one product and glossing over another when they do the same thing? Propaganda.

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Wow, quite the environmentalist you are! You have probably done much more research than I have. What were your findings on the per-vehicle lifetime environmental effects of an EV vs combustion engine?

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It’s not being an environmentalist. It’s common sense. On the flip side.. you have people who are programmed that only gasoline pollutes. And no one corrects them. And you usually see them camped out next to oil pipelines.

And the most popular hybrid? The Prius? It’s a while. Central Connecticut University did a study that a new Toyota Prius has more overall negative impact on the environment than an H2Hummer from production to scrap.

How is that possible? The pollution from the mining of the minerals.. the pollution from shipping the minerals.. the pollution from production of the batteries.. the pollution from shipping batteries from the battery plant to the car manufacturing facility... the more energy it takes to produce the materials for the car.. and the shipping of the car to dealer.

So if you drive a Toyota Prius for 100k and a Hummer H2 for 100k there is not much benefit, overall, from driving a Prius over an H2 Hummer. Now compare the Prius to a Civic.

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Do you know how sometimes you can choose to do something that is more costly up front, but it pays out over the long term? In financial terms we call this an "investment". The same thing plays out over the course of an EV's useful life.

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If you ever refer to buying a new car an “investment” in any form.. then you know Jack about investing.