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Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:05 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
Again, you appear to be confused about where the talent part comes into play. It isn't in setting the thermostat to 75 degrees and dumping a pre-weighed amoutn of aluminum into a vat, etc. etc. It's in designing that whole process from scratch.
You appear to not understand that it's not just the process, but the understanding of the process. Sweet frick, dude, even if it were a simple recipe, which the show goes to great lengths to say and demonstrate it's not, you don't think there are people who can follow a recipe better than another? My wife makes a mean boeuf bourguignon, but there is no way in frick she could do it as well as Julia Child, even though it's Julia Child's recipe.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:05 pm to STLhog
quote:
You don't think Heisenberg would call Mozart, Picasso etc a "genius"?
I absolutely think he would have called himself a chemist first and an artist second when he was at his peak.
I think that Jesse in the first episode probably thought he was quite artiste with his chili powder meth. I think Heisenberg would have mocked that line of thinking and said that what he did was all science.
I also think we're at the point in this debate where we will simply have to agree to disagree.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:20 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
Again, you appear to be confused about where the talent part comes into play
Walt was waaaaaaay more talented than Jesse.
quote:
It isn't in setting the thermostat to 75 degrees and dumping a pre-weighed amoutn of aluminum into a vat, etc. etc. It's in designing that whole process from scratch.
It sounds like you're agreeing with me now. I'm confused.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:26 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
I also think we're at the point in this debate where we will simply have to agree to disagree.
How do you explain someone being able to bake something from a recipe and it not being quite as good as say their mom or the head baker at a bakery?
As said by other posters, 96% was pretty damn good and hardly different from 99%.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:31 pm to SystemsGo
My biggest issue with BB is the fact that they skimmed over one of the moments that I was looking forward to the most during the whole series.
I know Jr. gets a lot of hate here but I liked the character. He was the only thing on the show that wasn't tainted. He was just an American teenager dealing with a disability and a father with cancer. He was oblivious to the horrible things his parents were doing and they kept that him that way the almost the entire series--which they should have.
However, I fully expected a devastating reveal in Season 5. I wanted to see the pain and the confusion and betrayal on Jr.'s face as he's confronted with the truth that his hero was in fact the villain. And that his mother knew everything and she never went to the authorities. She put his and his infant sister's life in danger and was complicit in keeping him duped. I wanted to see his innocence replaced with disbelief and destruction of faith in those he trusted most.
Instead we got a semi-violent confrontation where Jr. was forced to defend his mother without knowing exactly what was going on and an angry phone call later on down the road.
I just think VG passed up a great opportunity to make the most out of character that was nothing more than one more person to keep a secret from.
I know Jr. gets a lot of hate here but I liked the character. He was the only thing on the show that wasn't tainted. He was just an American teenager dealing with a disability and a father with cancer. He was oblivious to the horrible things his parents were doing and they kept that him that way the almost the entire series--which they should have.
However, I fully expected a devastating reveal in Season 5. I wanted to see the pain and the confusion and betrayal on Jr.'s face as he's confronted with the truth that his hero was in fact the villain. And that his mother knew everything and she never went to the authorities. She put his and his infant sister's life in danger and was complicit in keeping him duped. I wanted to see his innocence replaced with disbelief and destruction of faith in those he trusted most.
Instead we got a semi-violent confrontation where Jr. was forced to defend his mother without knowing exactly what was going on and an angry phone call later on down the road.
I just think VG passed up a great opportunity to make the most out of character that was nothing more than one more person to keep a secret from.
This post was edited on 7/7/15 at 3:32 pm
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:31 pm to SanFranTiger
quote:
I still don't understand why people hated Marie so much. Of all the unlikeable characters in the series, Marie got so much of the hate.
Because she's a terrible character and served almost 0 purpose, except to overcomplicate things because she decided to shoplift...?
She was slightly redeemed near the end when she wanted to take Breakfast away from the she-devil that is Skylar. And honestly, if they had playedup that storyline more, she might have been a good character.
Think about killing Skylar at some point, Marie and Hank growing up quickly into having to be parents, etc. Would have been interesting. It wasn't necessarily their story however.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:43 pm to King George
That is a great point about Jr. It would have been a very interesting storyline.
This post was edited on 7/7/15 at 3:44 pm
Posted on 7/7/15 at 3:53 pm to STLhog
quote:
How do you explain someone being able to bake something from a recipe and it not being quite as good as say their mom or the head baker at a bakery?
As said by other posters, 96% was pretty damn good and hardly different from 99%.
Thank you for this point. I think this will allow me to clarify my disagreement.
My grandmother's cheeseball was legendary. You've never tasted anything so delectable in your entire life. There was a written recipe for it, but she didn't use it. She just made it. And after she passed a while back, my mom would make one according the written recipe my grandmother hadn't looked at it in 30 year. Good, but not on the same level.
But if my grandmother had made it exactly according to the recipe, then my mom's would taste exactly the same. And then if I followed that recipe I could make one and it would be exactly the same.
Hell, I can't cook a think, but you should taste the punkin pie I make.....according to my mom's recipe. Tastes just like hers (quite delicious).
And so the question then becomes: is cooking meth more like making my grandmother's cheeseball, or more like making my mom's punkin pie. I submit that it's like the pumpkin pie. Walt had a painstakingly precise set of steps to follow. There was no spitballing. There was no playing it by ear. It was recipe, followed to the letter.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 4:02 pm to SystemsGo
yea we're def. at a point of agreeing to disagree.
I think Gilligan gave Walt Jr. enough of that IMO. I don't think that kid could have pulled off anything better anyway.
As someone else said he's Anthony Jr from the Sops or Glen from Mad Men.
I think Gilligan gave Walt Jr. enough of that IMO. I don't think that kid could have pulled off anything better anyway.
As someone else said he's Anthony Jr from the Sops or Glen from Mad Men.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 4:07 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
But if my grandmother had made it exactly according to the recipe, then my mom's would taste exactly the same. And then if I followed that recipe I could make one and it would be exactly the same.
Hell, I can't cook a think, but you should taste the punkin pie I make.....according to my mom's recipe. Tastes just like hers (quite delicious).
And so the question then becomes: is cooking meth more like making my grandmother's cheeseball, or more like making my mom's punkin pie. I submit that it's like the pumpkin pie. Walt had a painstakingly precise set of steps to follow. There was no spitballing. There was no playing it by ear. It was recipe, followed to the letter.
It's not just a simple recipe, guy. How are you not getting this? And why is it a fricking hang up? Walt, like every cook who really understands the way things react to each other and understands why they do things a certain way, could make adjustments where adjustments needed to be made. In theory, recipes are designed to get you the same product every time, but in practice, even with a detailed, thorough recipe, there are changes, small differences that occur. Walt can account for these because he's a chemist. Jesse cannot because he's not.
This is very fricking simple and I feel like now you're just trying to argue for the sake of argument rather than actually trying to change anyone's mind.
All of your "beefs" with the show are so insignificant as to be borderline trollish. King George's issue with Jr's reaction (or lack thereof), Freauxzen's suggestion of an issue with Marie's rather pointless kleptomania storyline, those are legitimate. Walter being a better "cook" than Jesse is not. It was explained numerous times in the show and has been thoroughly beaten to death by the posters in this thread.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 4:15 pm to LoveThatMoney
Walt taught Jesse everything Jesse knew about the cook. He didn't teach him everything Walt knew.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 5:01 pm to STLhog
quote:
yea we're def. at a point of agreeing to disagree.
I think Gilligan gave Walt Jr. enough of that IMO. I don't think that kid could have pulled off anything better anyway.
As someone else said he's Anthony Jr from the Sops or Glen from Mad Men.
For me, Anthony jr on sopranos wasn't a poorly written character, he was just an annoying little brat. I think Walt jr(and Marie) were poorly written.
The other guy nailed it on the head why Marie was poorly written, the shoplifting subplot was awful.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 8:02 pm to LoveThatMoney
quote:
It's not just a simple recipe, guy. How are you not getting this? And why is it a fricking hang up? Walt, like every cook who really understands the way things react to each other and understands why they do things a certain way, could make adjustments where adjustments needed to be made. In theory, recipes are designed to get you the same product every time, but in practice, even with a detailed, thorough recipe, there are changes, small differences that occur. Walt can account for these because he's a chemist. Jesse cannot because he's not.
This is very fricking simple and I feel like now you're just trying to argue for the sake of argument rather than actually trying to change anyone's mind.
I'm certainly not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing because there's nothing in the series to suggest the bolded above was ever necessary. There was no indication that there was any aspect of that process that required quick-thinking professional judgment. And I've never cooked meth myself so the depiction of the process over the 60+ episodes is what I'm going off of.
We obviously just disagree on this point. It happens.
quote:
All of your "beefs" with the show are so insignificant as to be borderline trollish. King George's issue with Jr's reaction (or lack thereof), Freauxzen's suggestion of an issue with Marie's rather pointless kleptomania storyline, those are legitimate. Walter being a better "cook" than Jesse is not. It was explained numerous times in the show and has been thoroughly beaten to death by the posters in this thread.
Now you sound like the guy from the first page who said I was being "inflammatory". In this context, I have no idea what that means. I just got done watching this series and so I posted a few things I was thinking about as it was going on. How that could be considered 'trolling' is beyond me.
This post was edited on 7/7/15 at 8:04 pm
Posted on 7/7/15 at 8:15 pm to King George
quote:
My biggest issue with BB is the fact that they skimmed over one of the moments that I was looking forward to the most during the whole series.
I know Jr. gets a lot of hate here but I liked the character. He was the only thing on the show that wasn't tainted. He was just an American teenager dealing with a disability and a father with cancer. He was oblivious to the horrible things his parents were doing and they kept that him that way the almost the entire series--which they should have.
However, I fully expected a devastating reveal in Season 5. I wanted to see the pain and the confusion and betrayal on Jr.'s face as he's confronted with the truth that his hero was in fact the villain. And that his mother knew everything and she never went to the authorities. She put his and his infant sister's life in danger and was complicit in keeping him duped. I wanted to see his innocence replaced with disbelief and destruction of faith in those he trusted most.
Instead we got a semi-violent confrontation where Jr. was forced to defend his mother without knowing exactly what was going on and an angry phone call later on down the road.
I just think VG passed up a great opportunity to make the most out of character that was nothing more than one more person to keep a secret from.
This is an interesting take. I definitely did not expect such a reveal and thought the manner in which Jr was utilized in those two scenes was consistent with the overall utilization of that character.
In other words, I actually would have found it odd if they all of a sudden made an attempt to "get more" out of that character in that it wouldn't have been congruent with his depiction over the entirety of the series. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that maybe you don't go trying to add depth to a one-dimensional character at the last minute.
And I don't think Jr was a bad character, just a limited character.
Posted on 7/7/15 at 8:17 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Because she's a terrible character and served almost 0 purpose, except to overcomplicate things because she decided to shoplift...?
She was slightly redeemed near the end when she wanted to take Breakfast away from the she-devil that is Skylar. And honestly, if they had playedup that storyline more, she might have been a good character.
Think about killing Skylar at some point, Marie and Hank growing up quickly into having to be
Why do you think Skylar is a she-devil? Do you think she's a better or worse human being than Marie?
Posted on 7/7/15 at 8:26 pm to Birdie King
quote:
the only part I couldn't go with (and laughed at plot wise) was when Walter and Skyler blackmailed Hank with the videotape.
Agreed, that was terrible
Posted on 7/7/15 at 11:28 pm to SystemsGo
quote:
In other words, I actually would have found it odd if they all of a sudden made an attempt to "get more" out of that character in that it wouldn't have been congruent with his depiction over the entirety of the series. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that maybe you don't go trying to add depth to a one-dimensional character at the last minute.
And I don't think Jr was a bad character, just a limited character.
i think that right there is the problem; the fact that JR was limited and one dimensional is what made him a poorly written character. As the son of the main character, he got a shite ton of screen time, and none of it was really memorable or significant.
Posted on 7/8/15 at 12:08 am to King George
quote:
My biggest issue with BB is the fact that they skimmed over one of the moments that I was looking forward to the most during the whole series.
I know Jr. gets a lot of hate here but I liked the character. He was the only thing on the show that wasn't tainted. He was just an American teenager dealing with a disability and a father with cancer. He was oblivious to the horrible things his parents were doing and they kept that him that way the almost the entire series--which they should have.
However, I fully expected a devastating reveal in Season 5. I wanted to see the pain and the confusion and betrayal on Jr.'s face as he's confronted with the truth that his hero was in fact the villain. And that his mother knew everything and she never went to the authorities. She put his and his infant sister's life in danger and was complicit in keeping him duped. I wanted to see his innocence replaced with disbelief and destruction of faith in those he trusted most.
Instead we got a semi-violent confrontation where Jr. was forced to defend his mother without knowing exactly what was going on and an angry phone call later on down the road.
I just think VG passed up a great opportunity to make the most out of character that was nothing more than one more person to keep a secret from.
This too. And for that very powerful reason. He was the only "good" person on the show.
Honestly, I think a big issue of Breaking Bad, both for the good and certainly the bad, was focusing SO MUCH on Walter. Granted, he was a good character, but for the narrative, he only became one at the expense of "could have beens" like Jesse, Marie, and Breakfast. I thought each had a much better arc boiling under the surface that was seriously sacrificed.
This post was edited on 7/8/15 at 12:09 am
Posted on 7/8/15 at 4:26 am to SystemsGo
"Cooking meth" is an extremely meticulous and difficult process of chemical reactions where even the slightest variance can considerably affect the final product. You must not have even the most rudimentary knowledge of chemistry to not understand this, as others have tried to explain to you. The notion that anybody can perfect such a process regardless of prior knowledge or previously guided practice is foolish. Not everyone has the diligence and attention to detail to achieve such perfection in a laboratory situation.
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