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Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:00 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
the economy is way better now.
Wrong. Unemployment is MUCH worse than under Bush. Deficits are MUCH worse than under Bush.
It is the slowest recovery in the history of recoveries ever. Want to try to counter that?
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:02 pm to Zach
Never was Bush's fault. His admin warned what was coming and the dems laughed him off. Clinton and the dems and reps in Congress agreed to repeal Glass Steagall.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:02 pm to Zach
It's going to be Bush's Fault until the end of the Obama presidency. Poor Obama.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:12 pm to Zach
quote:Please tell me HOW the economy right now is worse than it was 2008. The economy was in the freaking toilet! Try to counter that!quote:Wrong
the economy is way better now
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:13 pm to Zach
quote:
Been 6 years now. If your answer is 'yes' then in what year will it no longer be Bush's fault?
What did you poll 6 years ago indicate?
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:15 pm to Zach
quote:
Wrong. Unemployment is MUCH worse than under Bush. Deficits are MUCH worse than under Bush.
It is the slowest recovery in the history of recoveries ever. Want to try to counter that?
way better than it was 6 years ago, that is undeniable. only an idiot would say the economy is worse now than it was in late 2008.
But anyway
a) unemployment - UE rate (u3) is about the same rate as it was in 2003. And right about the rate it was before the bubble imploded (mid 2008)
b) deficit - deficit for 2014 is about the same as it was in 2003/2004. Deficit isn't really "the economy" its gov't spending. It affects the economy in multiple ways, but a high deficit doesn't mean the economy is doing poorly, nor does a low deficit mean the economy is doing well.
I do agree the economy isn't doing particularly well. But your arguments aren't particularly compelling. I would point to labor participation rate, low wage growth, and GDP growth instead of deficits and UE.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:18 pm to Zach
Anything Obama proposes is shot down by the House GOP claiming it will hurt the economy. They scream bloody murder if he tries to bypass them. Then when the numbers come in showing a sluggish economy they yell AHA! We told Obama's policies would hurt the economy!
I mean don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to block virtually all of his policy proposals then criticize him for failing?
I mean don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to block virtually all of his policy proposals then criticize him for failing?
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:18 pm to Zach
It's his fault when it's bad and Obama's doing when it's good.
It's kinda like really religious folk who attribute everything good that happens to the work of God (a miracle), but everything bad that happens to human choice.
It's a very convenient strategy.
It's kinda like really religious folk who attribute everything good that happens to the work of God (a miracle), but everything bad that happens to human choice.
It's a very convenient strategy.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:21 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
I mean don't you think it's a bit disingenuous to block virtually all of his policy proposals then criticize him for failing?
eventually you will have the reverse, a republican congress and democratic congress. The democrats were quite accommodating to bush, will this change in the future?
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:23 pm to Zach
quote:
It is the slowest recovery in the history of recoveries ever. Want to try to counter that?
I think the Depression recovery was slower. Of course the Depression was worse. However, this "Great Recession" was the worst (outside of the Depression) so it's not surprising the recovery would be the slowest, outside the Depression.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:26 pm to mmcgrath
quote:I would love to explain.
Predicting the "end is near" without saying what is currently wrong isn't saying anything. The primary reasonable fear is some after affect of the country's debt service causing a problem. Is there some other industry (banking, etc) issue that would cause a sudden impact that administration isn't addressing?
During the dot-com era, assets became overvalued and eventually the stock market went way down as the bubble burst. Unemployment went up, the economy shrunk, etc.
This short-term pain was necessary to reallocate resources around the economy. But Alan Greenspan didn't want that, so he manipulated the interest rates down to make borrowing cheaper and encourage investment.
So all of that investment created by cheap money went into housing. Housing values went way up.
Greenspan kicked the can down the road, and once again, the bubble popped. The housing bubble and credit crunch.
So what did the government do this time? Did they let the economy reallocate resources, which would be painful but necessary to rebuild the economy stronger? Nope. They kicked the can down the road again.
Now, the Fed is creating money and the banks then lend to the Treasury to pay for government. All of this is possible because of the extremely low interest rates.
They can keep borrowing because the dollar is the reserve currency. The more they print, the less the dollar is worth. Eventually, borrowers are going to get tired of getting paid back with dollars worth less than the ones they loaned. Eventually, the credit market will dry up.
Eventually, the interest rates will go up. They have to. And for the largest debtor nation, that is bad news.
Adjustable-rate mortgage? Payments will skyrocket. Welcome lots of foreclosures, and eventually another housing collapse.
Banks? If the interest rates rise, many banks will be done, too.
Then we got the national debt. Most of it matures in less than a year, and rising interest rates would be catastrophic.
Will the government tighten or print? Of course, they will print. This will cause massive inflation.
There is a lot more to it, but in short, it will end eventually. Who knows when. But it will.
The economy is not in great shape even with extremely low interest rates and the Fed pumping money into the economy. That is only keeping up appearances.
It will come to an end eventually, and when it does, it will be a big crash.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:34 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
eventually you will have the reverse, a republican congress and democratic congress. The democrats were quite accommodating to bush, will this change in the future?
Republicans have always had a better field game at forcing Dems to capitulate. Their echo chamber is solid. The meme starts on talk radio and right wing sites like this, it's repeated over and over, the MSM picks it up and it becomes the prevailing sentiment.
We see it every day on this board. Take any silly thread darkhorse and Cpt. Bengal posts and google. See the the echo chamber. Hundreds of identical hits on blogs and message boards across the country. Most of the time the sound and fury signifying nothing peters out and the right blames the MSM. But if a Rep is in the White House, he can exploit it.
Remember boycotting French fries? The meme "why do you hate this country?" The ridiculous meme that anti-war protestors didn't support the troops. He'll you still have people here claiming we found WMD in Iraq and the WMD was transferred to Syria. It's only recently that the meme re Saddam's connection to AQ finally died down.
They're very good at propaganda. Skewed polls and all.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 12:53 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:This happened. Starting in 2005 but then going big time in 2008. Yet you believe the economy in free fall (as it was in 2008) is just as bad as it is today?
Adjustable-rate mortgage? Payments will skyrocket. Welcome lots of foreclosures, and eventually another housing collapse.
Banks? If the interest rates rise, many banks will be done, too.
Housing values are currently back to normal levels and I would say there are a lot less bad home loans out thee (mostly due to the defaults that already occurred under the recession). Unemployment is trending down.
The biggest fear that I see as legit is municipal and state debt as well as a general lack of industry in the US. Neither of which the President can do much about.
However with deficits getting smaller and unemployment trending in the right direction there should be no denying that the economy is better than when Obama took office.
The economy under Bush was horrible yet for some reason many posters want to credit Bush with economic numbers in 2005 while blaming the crash in 2008 on Clinton... which is illogical and pretty ironic in this thread.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:48 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:
The problems have been swept under the rug and the can kicked down the road, and the economy still isn't doing great.
Eventually, the shite will hit the fan and there will be a crash that makes the last one look small-time.
Some Nostradamus level stuff there.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:48 pm to mmcgrath
I'm saying those same things will happen again, except there will be no way to sweep those things under the rug and kick the can down the road next time.
Cheap money and debt will bring everything down. They can't keep artificially propping up the economy by creating bubbles.
It will come to an end, and the Fed/Obama administration did nothing to even attempt to fix it. It just keeps growing.
Cheap money and debt will bring everything down. They can't keep artificially propping up the economy by creating bubbles.
It will come to an end, and the Fed/Obama administration did nothing to even attempt to fix it. It just keeps growing.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:53 pm to Zach
quote:
Want to try to counter that?
economy =/= deficit.
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:53 pm to PrimeTime Money
quote:The deficits are steadily coming down, but would go down faster if moderate tax increases weren't demonized by the right.
It will come to an end, and the Fed/Obama administration did nothing to even attempt to fix it. It just keeps growing.
If we installed some extra taxes at the beginning of the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars (instead of kicking the can down the road) we would be fine right now. Of course the bank collapse would have been delayed by a few years or potentially worse...
Posted on 8/27/14 at 1:59 pm to Jake88
quote:
Never was Bush's fault. His admin warned what was coming and the dems laughed him off.
True
Barney Frank basically said it was a right wing conspiracy and that everything was gonna be fine because people tend to pay mortgages.
Bush practically begged for the House and Senate to act on passing reform bills. Bills were brought up in the House and Senate but were blocked.
When the SHTF and reforms were forced Senator Dodd was like : "Why didn't we act sooner?"
Sen.Dodd as of 2008 had received the largest amount of campaign contributions from Fannie/Freddie. Second place was then Sen.Obama.
What's sickening is that there were so many House and Senate members,both R and D on the receiving end of Fannie/Freddie money that reform (pre 2008) would never have had a chance anyway.
This post was edited on 8/27/14 at 2:01 pm
Posted on 8/27/14 at 2:02 pm to mmcgrath
Tax increases and reducing spending are the only two ways.
Neither are going to happen because they are politically unpopular.
Neither are going to happen because they are politically unpopular.
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