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Message
re: Did Holder's "I'm a black man" comments arguably violate Ethics rules?
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:23 pm to Navytiger74
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:23 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
No. The AG is not a prosecutor.
Is the AG bound by the American Bar Association's Rules of Professional Conduct for attorneys? Holder is, I believe, an attorney.
Or is he off the hook due to this technicality that he's not a "prosecutor" even though he manages and supervises every US attorney prosecutor?
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:25 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
The AG heads the DOJ which has it's own ethics department and code.
Can you prove that these exist by providing a link?
Or are you just making it up ?
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:27 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
holder is a politician, not really a "prosecutor"
Completely disagree. He did not run for political office, he was appointed. Once approved by the Senate he is duty bound by the Constitution of the United States to uphold the law equally for all Americans.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:31 pm to Champagne
Didn't you once claim to be a lawyer? And you can't even google.
LINK /
Welcome to the Departmental Ethics Office website. On this website you can find the various laws and regulations governing the conduct of Department of Justice employees. We have included general information on the Executive Branch Standards of Conduct, the conflict of interest statutes, the Department's supplemental standards of conduct and various other ethics rules, regulations and policies. We have organized the ethics rules by subject which you can access through the left navigation menu. A click on highlighted citations or phrases will provide you with more information.
The complete text of the Standards of Conduct and the Department's supplemental regulations can be found at 5 C.F.R. § 2635, 5 C.F.R. § 3801 and 28 C.F.R. § 45. The Office of Government Ethics’ website contains Executive Order 12731, which sets forth the Principles of Ethical Conduct for Government Officials and Employees.
The Departmental Ethics Office, located in the Justice Management Division, is responsible for administering the Department-wide ethics program and for implementing Department-wide policies on ethics issues. The office provides advice and training directly to employees in the Department’s Senior Management Offices, the Justice Management Division, the Office of Public Affairs, the Office of the Federal Detention Trustee, the Office of Dispute Resolution, and the Office of Tribal Justice, and supervises the ethics programs in the remaining Department components. Each component has a Deputy Designated Agency Ethics Official who is responsible for administering the ethics program within his or her component.
Here is a list of ethics officials for each component.
We hope this website will assist ethics officials in managing their ethics programs. We also encourage employees to use the website as a source of information, but they should remember that certain rules are complex and require some analysis in applying them to specific situations. For this reason, employees should always seek the advice of an ethics official when contemplating any action that may be covered by the rules.
Allegations of misconduct involving Department attorneys that arise from their authority to investigate, litigate, or provide legal advice should be reported to the Department's Office of Professional Responsibility.
Questions concerning professional responsibility issues such as the McDade amendment and contacts with represented parties should be directed to the Department's Professional Responsibility Advisory Office on (202) 514-0458.
Allegations of fraud, waste, abuse, or misconduct by Department of Justice employees should be reported to the Office of the Inspector General (OIG), whose contact information may be found on their web site.
If you have any questions or suggestions for the website, please feel free to contact the Departmental Ethics Office on (202) 514-8196.
LINK /
Welcome to the Departmental Ethics Office website. On this website you can find the various laws and regulations governing the conduct of Department of Justice employees. We have included general information on the Executive Branch Standards of Conduct, the conflict of interest statutes, the Department's supplemental standards of conduct and various other ethics rules, regulations and policies. We have organized the ethics rules by subject which you can access through the left navigation menu. A click on highlighted citations or phrases will provide you with more information.
The complete text of the Standards of Conduct and the Department's supplemental regulations can be found at 5 C.F.R. § 2635, 5 C.F.R. § 3801 and 28 C.F.R. § 45. The Office of Government Ethics’ website contains Executive Order 12731, which sets forth the Principles of Ethical Conduct for Government Officials and Employees.
The Departmental Ethics Office, located in the Justice Management Division, is responsible for administering the Department-wide ethics program and for implementing Department-wide policies on ethics issues. The office provides advice and training directly to employees in the Department’s Senior Management Offices, the Justice Management Division, the Office of Public Affairs, the Office of the Federal Detention Trustee, the Office of Dispute Resolution, and the Office of Tribal Justice, and supervises the ethics programs in the remaining Department components. Each component has a Deputy Designated Agency Ethics Official who is responsible for administering the ethics program within his or her component.
Here is a list of ethics officials for each component.
We hope this website will assist ethics officials in managing their ethics programs. We also encourage employees to use the website as a source of information, but they should remember that certain rules are complex and require some analysis in applying them to specific situations. For this reason, employees should always seek the advice of an ethics official when contemplating any action that may be covered by the rules.
Allegations of misconduct involving Department attorneys that arise from their authority to investigate, litigate, or provide legal advice should be reported to the Department's Office of Professional Responsibility.
Questions concerning professional responsibility issues such as the McDade amendment and contacts with represented parties should be directed to the Department's Professional Responsibility Advisory Office on (202) 514-0458.
Allegations of fraud, waste, abuse, or misconduct by Department of Justice employees should be reported to the Office of the Inspector General (OIG), whose contact information may be found on their web site.
If you have any questions or suggestions for the website, please feel free to contact the Departmental Ethics Office on (202) 514-8196.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:33 pm to Champagne
quote:
Would a thoughtful, wise, competent AG who possesses good judgment make such extrajudicial comments?
Ah, there's the rub.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:39 pm to Champagne
quote:
So, the American Bar Association's Rules of Professional Conduct don't apply to AG Holder?
I don't think you understand what the ABA is.
The ABA is a voluntary professional organization. No attorney needs to be a member to practice. Their Rules of Professional Responsibilty are "Model Rules".
So to answer your question, no they don't apply to the AG or to any attorney as for as practicing law is concerned. They have no jurisdiction over the practice of law. They're equivalent to the AMA.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:41 pm to Vegas Bengal
FYI:
ABA MODEL RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT
About the Model Rules
The ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct were adopted by the ABA House of Delegates in 1983. They serve as models for the ethics rules of most states. Before the adoption of the Model Rules, the ABA model was the 1969 Model Code of Professional Responsibility . Preceding the Model Code were the 1908 Canons of Professional Ethics (last amended in 1963).
Model Rules Table of Contents
Purchase a copy
The Model Rules of Professional Conduct and Model Code of Judicial Conduct are available for Apple iOS devices like iPad, iPhone and iPod. Download the “rulebook” app from the App Store. You can then locate and purchase both our apps under the category of ABA Model Rules.
Also available - Annotated Model Rules of Professional Conduct
Discounts are available for books ordered in bulk. Special consideration is given to state bars, CLE programs and other bar-related organizations. Contact Amanda Wilander, ABA Publications Planning and Marketing, for more information.
Russian Translation (2009)
Implementation of Model Rules Changes
The Center for Professional Responsibility Policy Implementation Committee assist states in their implementation of changes to the Model Rules. Its site includes a chart on the status of each state's review of the Rule changes.
A Legislative History
This Legislative History traces the Model Rules of Professional Conduct (Model Rules) from the appointment of the ABA Commission on Evaluation of Professional Standards (" Kutak Commission") in 1977 through the year 2005. It includes the first presentation of the Model Rules format to the American Bar Association House of Delegates, the adoption of the Model Rules, and the many amendments to the Model Rules that have been adopted or proposed through August 2005.
Purchase
State Adoption of Model Rules
To date, California is the only state that does not have professional conduct rules that follow the format of the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct.
Alphabetical List of States Adopting Model Rules
Chronological List of States Adopting Amendments to the Model Rules
Status of State Review of Professional Conduct Rules
Links to State Ethics Rules
State Adoption of Model Rule Comments
Restatement Comparison
Comparison of the Model Rules to the Restatement of the Law Governing Lawyers
Comparison of the Restatement of the Law Governing Lawyers to the Model Rules
Lawyer Law: Comparing the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct with the ALI Restatement (Third) of the Law Governing Lawyers
Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam
See the National Conference of Bar Examiners Web site.
ABA MODEL RULES OF PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT
About the Model Rules
The ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct were adopted by the ABA House of Delegates in 1983. They serve as models for the ethics rules of most states. Before the adoption of the Model Rules, the ABA model was the 1969 Model Code of Professional Responsibility . Preceding the Model Code were the 1908 Canons of Professional Ethics (last amended in 1963).
Model Rules Table of Contents
Purchase a copy
The Model Rules of Professional Conduct and Model Code of Judicial Conduct are available for Apple iOS devices like iPad, iPhone and iPod. Download the “rulebook” app from the App Store. You can then locate and purchase both our apps under the category of ABA Model Rules.
Also available - Annotated Model Rules of Professional Conduct
Discounts are available for books ordered in bulk. Special consideration is given to state bars, CLE programs and other bar-related organizations. Contact Amanda Wilander, ABA Publications Planning and Marketing, for more information.
Russian Translation (2009)
Implementation of Model Rules Changes
The Center for Professional Responsibility Policy Implementation Committee assist states in their implementation of changes to the Model Rules. Its site includes a chart on the status of each state's review of the Rule changes.
A Legislative History
This Legislative History traces the Model Rules of Professional Conduct (Model Rules) from the appointment of the ABA Commission on Evaluation of Professional Standards (" Kutak Commission") in 1977 through the year 2005. It includes the first presentation of the Model Rules format to the American Bar Association House of Delegates, the adoption of the Model Rules, and the many amendments to the Model Rules that have been adopted or proposed through August 2005.
Purchase
State Adoption of Model Rules
To date, California is the only state that does not have professional conduct rules that follow the format of the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct.
Alphabetical List of States Adopting Model Rules
Chronological List of States Adopting Amendments to the Model Rules
Status of State Review of Professional Conduct Rules
Links to State Ethics Rules
State Adoption of Model Rule Comments
Restatement Comparison
Comparison of the Model Rules to the Restatement of the Law Governing Lawyers
Comparison of the Restatement of the Law Governing Lawyers to the Model Rules
Lawyer Law: Comparing the ABA Model Rules of Professional Conduct with the ALI Restatement (Third) of the Law Governing Lawyers
Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam
See the National Conference of Bar Examiners Web site.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 12:44 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 12:53 pm to Vegas Bengal
Thanks for your help, VB. I appreciate it. I did find that website before you linked it, and, I gave it a second read after you linked it. I read the CFR links that you provided from the DoJ website, and, I found nothing like the ABA Rules for Professional Conduct.
So, AG Eric Holder is not legally bound to honor the American Bar Association's Rules for Professional Conduct for attorneys. We can agree on that.
Should he honor those rules notwithstanding any binding or controlling legal authority?
And, could you answer this very relevant question:
Would a thoughtful, wise, competent AG who possesses good judgment make such extrajudicial comments?
So, AG Eric Holder is not legally bound to honor the American Bar Association's Rules for Professional Conduct for attorneys. We can agree on that.
Should he honor those rules notwithstanding any binding or controlling legal authority?
And, could you answer this very relevant question:
Would a thoughtful, wise, competent AG who possesses good judgment make such extrajudicial comments?
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:02 pm to Champagne
He's already in contempt. How he still has his license is beyond me.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:07 pm to udtiger
I share your concerns, but, I know that there are some practicing attorneys who support Obama that post here. VB points out that Holder broke no law nor did he violate any binding or controlling legal authority concerning professional conduct when he made his comments.
I would like to ask VB and others to answer this simple question:
Would a thoughtful, wise, competent AG who possesses good judgment make such extrajudicial comments?
I would like to ask VB and others to answer this simple question:
Would a thoughtful, wise, competent AG who possesses good judgment make such extrajudicial comments?
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:12 pm to Champagne
You can't ask that question without taking into consideration the factors involved. This is a 56 person police force with 53 white cops and 3 black cops in a town of 75% black people. You have nightly protests and cops in military gear and armaments. Having the AG and the president essentially say "I feel your pain" goes a lot towards quashing further violence than saying what this board is saying which is that MB and his friend are criminal thugs who got what they deserved and the people marching are thugs as well.
If you can't understand that, then in don't know what to tell you.
And btw, watching the rerun of Fox News Sunday, looks like the police chief and Karl Rove agree with me. His words helped.
If you can't understand that, then in don't know what to tell you.
And btw, watching the rerun of Fox News Sunday, looks like the police chief and Karl Rove agree with me. His words helped.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 1:44 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:14 pm to Champagne
quote:
Did Holder's "I'm a black man" comments arguably violate Ethics rules?
As far as I'm concerned, it's just words coming from the mouth of a politician.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:46 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
If you can't understand that, then in don't know what to tell you.
Holder's words went a bit further than to say, "I feel your pain."
Did the words that he chose create any legal issues for the defense to exploit?
I take it, you approve of Holder's comments and the phrasing? Or is it fair to say that he could have chosen his words and phrases more wisely?
Posted on 8/24/14 at 1:58 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:Has nothing to do with AG vs Sen. Has to do with attempted connection to a community undergoing real or perceived racial trauma.
Robert Kennedy was not the AG when MLK was killed and hadn't been AG for 4 years. He was a US Senator running for president.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 2:34 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Has nothing to do with AG vs Sen. Has to do with attempted connection to a community undergoing real or perceived racial trauma
Wtf?!?
In your quest to not admit your error, you've dug your hole deeper.
Just admit what Karl Rove and what any sane person can see, Holder's words and attendance has led to a considerable reduction in violence and racial tension.
It really is ok to agree with a liberal on occasion. When you feel yourself slipping into the abyss of being a darkhorse or golden nugget or Katy, slap yourself.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 2:35 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 2:38 pm to Champagne
quote:
Holder's words went a bit further than to say, "I feel your pain."
No.
quote:
Did the words that he chose create any legal issues for the defense to exploit?
No.
quote:I and the police chief of Ferguson approve of his comments.
I take it, you approve of Holder's comments and the phrasing? Or is it fair to say that he could have chosen his words and phrases more wisely?
Posted on 8/24/14 at 2:42 pm to Vegas Bengal
There's no doubt that the racial temperature in Ferguson dropped a few degrees after Holder arrived. The way I see it is that Holder was saying to the community, "I'm a brotha and I'm not going to sell you out." Maybe those folks needed to hear those words to calm down, and wait for the criminal justice system to play out.
Posted on 8/24/14 at 2:48 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:
His words helped.
Perhaps they did help. Or perhaps it was the in-person visit that worked best. IMHO, it was his personal visit that was positive, but, he "acted stupidly" when he chose his words.
Holder chose words that inferred a racial motive for the shooting. That was not necessary to be helpful.
Did his words create an legal issue for the defense to raise ? You say "No" but, I say that, if there is a prosecution of Wilson for civil rights violations, the defense will raise the issue of Holder's "I am a black man" comments. Holder created a defense issue unnecessarily. The court will have to deal with that issue, so, your conclusory answer seems wrong to me.
Should he have chosen his words more wisely?
I'm trying to find out whether there are any Democrat attorneys, or Democrats, who can find some fault with or criticism for AG Holder's statement. So far, points that you raise constitute a vigorous defense of your client Eric Holder.
I'm also struck by the fact that the guidelines for professional conduct for attorneys warn against making extrajudicial statements such as Holder's, but, no Democrat attorney feels the need to suggest that Holder should have followed that guideline, because it would have been the right thing to do.
This is the problem with voting Democrat -- when a Democrat does something wrong or questionable, all you get from the Democrat side is a vigorous defense, regardless of notions of right or wrong.
I hope that the US electorate will understand that it will always be like this with Democrats. In fact, if we continue to vote them into political power, they will get worse.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 2:58 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:I don't know about that, but I do know it is what Holder would likely claim to have been going for with his "I'm a black man" comment.
In your quest to not admit your error, you've dug your hole deeper.
Just admit what Karl Rove and what any sane person can see, Holder's words and attendance has led to a considerable reduction in violence and racial tension.
Hence the "channeling of RFK."
Maybe you should read my post again.
It seems you assumed it to say something it didn't.
This post was edited on 8/24/14 at 3:19 pm
Posted on 8/24/14 at 3:01 pm to Vegas Bengal
quote:I'd choose my associations a bit more carefully Vegas. That man is a nitwit.
I and the police chief of Ferguson
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