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Message
re: Re It's "immoral" to strategically default on one's mortgage
Posted on 12/13/11 at 4:57 pm to Dusty Bottoms
Posted on 12/13/11 at 4:57 pm to Dusty Bottoms
quote:
I made myself very clear. Continuing to fuel your silly game isn't my intention, so carry on without me.
quote:
He knows all of this. He's just flaming. Let it go.
Um, you made nothing clear at all. I'm very happy to answer your question if you can first tell me how it's an ethical matter. You've made plenty of declarative statements without much to back it up (of course, including ad hom).
There's no game here at all. I think your statements are wrong. You can agree or disagree, but that's just a fact.
0
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:06 pm to tirebiter
quote:
Which is why I wrote if the defaults were occurring in a normal environment borrowing costs would have gone up, but the govt is subsidizing everything. Let's be real, if the GSE's and Fed's monetary policy hadn't gone off the reservation the banks would not have been able to lend the sums they did.
Yeah, it seems like you have identified a main culprit - the virtuous cycle of government intervention in the real estate market. What would have your home value have ever been if Fannie/Freddie hadn't grown in to what they became? What of the voters that voted in the politicians and happily took government-subsidized mortgages all these years...should they draw your direct ire as well? And if so, why wasn't the onus on you just to opt out of the system instead of exposing yourself to it by buying a house? I guess I just don't think you can single out one behavior (defaulting) and get riled up at your neighbors about that. The entire mess is a huge hot ball of "non normalness".
quote:
Homebuyers never considered the outcome if the housing markets went south when reaching for property in hopes it would go up and they would benefit? C'mon, man, there can't be that many people without critical thinking skills that couldn't determine the potential downside of their own actions/participation.
Really? As late as summer 2007, the people in charge at the highest levels were saying (and actually believing!) "subprime contained". I would say it was almost absolutely ingrained in most people's heads that real estate only goes up. The average buyer in 2005 didn't even really have a vague concept of what default and foreclosure were. And just think of how 180 degrees wrong the "experts" were about default behavior based on backward looking metrics - i.e. "people will pay their mortgage until they're blue in the face; they will default on the credit cards and other obligations first". The exact opposite has happened.
quote:
It's like being given a free pass in life for being lazy, stupid, or crooked.
I don't agree that impaired or severely impaired credit is a "free pass". Nor is the severe stress that goes along with being underwater. Sure, some people are "professional" strategic defaulters, but most are just people who are terrified of their situation and want out.
quote:
If a neighbor makes a truly stupid housing decision then he/she is exerting negative consequences on other neighbors, that is reality.
I guess at core I just don't understand your argument. Housing prices are going to clear where they clear. Why does your neighbor really matter? And as someone asked you earlier, what about all the potential positive impacts?
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:17 pm to Tiger JJ
Not inserting myself into the larger discussion, but I think its painfully obvious from posts on this board alone that even highly educated people firmly and fervently believe that real estate is a single-tail investment.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:27 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I guess I just don't think you can single out one behavior (defaulting) and get riled up at your neighbors about that. The entire mess is a huge hot ball of "non normalness".
I'm not saying it is, nor am I absolving those that made poor decisions, either. The Barney Franks of the world need to try working in the private sector and see how their grandiose utopian decisions would fare and how short is employment tenure would be. On the other hand, it boggles the mind how strongly banks pushed back against the CRA then started buying high risk lending entities a few years later.
quote:
Really? As late as summer 2007, the people in charge at the highest levels were saying (and actually believing!) "subprime contained".
I can't have been the only person in the US talking to people about McMansion overbuilding going into 2004. Still don't understand people and their lack of understanding asset bubbles if they have ever taken 45 minutes to read about asset manias in the past.
quote:
Why does your neighbor really matter? And as someone asked you earlier, what about all the potential positive impacts?
Because if a truly qualified home buyer bought a property instead of a greedy non-qualified borrower/flipper/overreacher it would help maintain value in a neighborhood instead of artificially driving value (then overcorrecting on the downside) with easy money. I have never bought a residence as an investment given the history of housing appreciation in this country in relation to inflation. To be specific, I do not have a neighbor this is happening to, but have seen it play out over a large segment of ATL.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:39 pm to tirebiter
quote:
I can't have been the only person in the US talking to people about McMansion overbuilding going into 2004. Still don't understand people and their lack of understanding asset bubbles if they have ever taken 45 minutes to read about asset manias in the past.
You weren't the only one, but you and I were the crazy minority. I mean literally called crazy. shite, Michael Lewis himself dismissed the housing bears as late as 2007. Certainly you realize that the vast majority of people don't have the central processor that you have. Rather, they are fed a steady diet of parochial "this municipality is great!" bullshite in their local papers and newscasts. Nobody ever wants to think their area is overvalued.
quote:
Because if a truly qualified home buyer bought a property instead of a greedy non-qualified borrower/flipper/overreacher
Who's doing the qualifying...the lender or the borrower? Short of fraud, how is it even possible for an "unqualified" borrower to qualify for a loan?
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:45 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
Here's an offer: you stop making shite up and I'll stop making shite up.
So, I was right when I said you had not made the same self ban offer in this thread.
What's the matere? Are you afraid I've found your housing claims that you now deny?
C'mon, man up and make the same offer.....
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:50 pm to Tiger JJ
Undocumented income/liars loans and rogue mortgage lenders. There are many people being prosecuted in this area for mortgage fraud and I am not talking about bank employee lenders. The govt is more interested in pursuing this than securities fraud.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 5:55 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I would go so far as to say an underwater family has a moral duty to itself to strategically default or find some other way - legally - to lessen the forward burden.
The author is right - the grandstanding moral hypocrisy has been outrageous.
Did you negotiate the agreement in good faith, or does that even have any relevance? Can you commit fraud, or be a victim of fraud, if there is no such thing as good faith negotiations? You can't reasonably expect someone else to perform if circumstances change and reduce the benefits of their performance when you claim the right to not perform when it no longer provides you the expected benefit.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:03 pm to LSURussian
quote:
So, I was right when I said you had not made the same self ban offer in this thread.
No, I'm happy to be banned for life if I could be shown to be a defaulter.
quote:
What's the matere? Are you afraid I've found your housing claims that you now deny?
Not afraid at all. You can't find something that doesn't exist. I have no idea who you are, and I certainly am uncomfortable with the propensity to stalk that you have shown over the years (very Afreaux-esque). You seem to be hinting at some bizarre IRL info you have dug up about me, and in no way shape or form am I granting you leave to post any sort of personal information about me.
But sure, link to any post I've ever made on this board. I couldn't care less.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:10 pm to tirebiter
quote:
Undocumented income/liars loans and rogue mortgage lenders. There are many people being prosecuted in this area for mortgage fraud and I am not talking about bank employee lenders. The govt is more interested in pursuing this than securities fraud.
The government in general seems very over-concerned with prosecuting relatively minor infractions (e.g. insider trading), while being a huge promoter of all manner of shady shite in the bulge brackets.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:11 pm to Poodlebrain
quote:
Did you negotiate the agreement in good faith, or does that even have any relevance? Can you commit fraud, or be a victim of fraud, if there is no such thing as good faith negotiations?
Sure, good faith. I am not condoning fraud at all. Fraud is already illegal.
quote:
You can't reasonably expect someone else to perform if circumstances change and reduce the benefits of their performance when you claim the right to not perform when it no longer provides you the expected benefit.
Who shot who in the what now?
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:15 pm to tirebiter
While we are on the subject of defaulting due to bad decision making, don't hire someone like this as a financial "advisor" to manage your money:
LINK
There is that E word again.
That's what irresponsibility and wearing blinders when it enhances your poor decisions will get you. Hell, go ahead and take another $400k out via cash out refi's while your at it....
Then the moral obligation and family crop up:
I hope he realizes he has a moral obligation to others and doesn't act as a financial advisor to any present/future clients.
quote:
ONE night a few years ago, when the value of our home had collapsed, our debt was out of control and my financial planning business was shaky, I went to take out the trash.
LINK
quote:
So this is the story of how I lost my home, the profound ethical questions that arose along the way, and what my wife and I learned from the mistakes that led us to that point. It made me better at what I do, but it wasn’t much fun getting there.
There is that E word again.
quote:
I should have known better. No matter how well things are going, borrowing 100 percent of the purchase price of a home is not a good idea. I shouldn’t have relied on someone else to make that calculation, let alone the guy who was making money putting me in the loan. I was a financial adviser, and I never sat down to figure out what it would take to make this work.
That's what irresponsibility and wearing blinders when it enhances your poor decisions will get you. Hell, go ahead and take another $400k out via cash out refi's while your at it....
Then the moral obligation and family crop up:
quote:
At first, I dismissed the idea of a short sale. Late that summer, I sat down with a really close friend in Las Vegas, someone I looked up to. He cut to the heart of the matter right away: Why, he wanted to know, were we still making the payments? Because I have a moral obligation, I said. You pay your debts. He proceeded to explain that I didn’t have a moral obligation to the bank. I had a moral obligation to my family. I had a contractual obligation to the bank, along with a clear moral obligation to be honest in my dealings. What he was asking was this: Which is more important? Your contractual obligation to the bank or your obligation to your family to preserve your ability to make a living?
I hope he realizes he has a moral obligation to others and doesn't act as a financial advisor to any present/future clients.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:18 pm to tirebiter
quote:
I had a contractual obligation to the bank, along with a clear moral obligation to be honest in my dealings
I think that's said pretty well. I am in no way advocating dishonesty.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:20 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
The government in general seems very over-concerned with prosecuting relatively minor infractions (e.g. insider trading), while being a huge promoter of all manner of shady shite in the bulge brackets.
Totally agree, in the committee the 3-MF Global clowns were lying out both sides of their mouths and lower orifices at will regarding customer transfers/theft to MFG's accounts.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:23 pm to tirebiter
quote:
Totally agree, in the committee the 3-MF Global clowns were lying out both sides of their mouths and lower orifices at will regarding customer transfers/theft to MFG's accounts.
Do we actually disagree about anything?
I just want to be clear - I think most underwater people are either idiots, ignorant or both. My only point is that we should not lionize the "strategic" behavior of businesses while acting like individual borrowers should be held to some magical ethical/moral standard.
Check out what happened to the old Amazon headquarters - the owner of the building strategically defaulted:
LINK
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:28 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I think that's said pretty well. I am in no way advocating dishonesty.
Never implied nor thought you did. It is a multi-faceted issue, but one of my primary takes on it is there were a lot of "borrowers" free riding and it is those I have a true issue with. At the end of the day, putting someone in shackles over an upside down situation that could take 15-years to work off while killing their ability to save for retirement or support the economy through consumption is not much of a solution, either.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:34 pm to tirebiter
quote:
At the end of the day, putting someone in shackles over an upside down situation that could take 15-years to work off while killing their ability to save for retirement or support the economy through consumption is not much of a solution, either.
Yeah, if you are concerned about the "community" angle, I would argue that ripping the band aid off is quite preferable to being trapped underwater.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:43 pm to Tiger JJ
quote:
I have no idea who you are
So your claim that you found a police charge against me was a lie. Just admit it and I'll drop the challenge.
quote:
You seem to be hinting at some bizarre IRL info you have dug up about me
Nope. The only information I have on you comes from your posts on TD. Including you dated a cardiologists daughter when you were young. And you did not get a degree in business at UPenn.
See? Only what you've posted on this site.
Posted on 12/13/11 at 6:54 pm to LSURussian
JT sold his house in Washington to an Asian couple who paid cash.
AMIRITE?
AMIRITE?
Posted on 12/13/11 at 7:20 pm to LSURussian
quote:
quote:
I have no idea who you are
So your claim that you found a police charge against me was a lie. Just admit it and I'll drop the challenge.
quote:
You seem to be hinting at some bizarre IRL info you have dug up about me
Nope. The only information I have on you comes from your posts on TD. Including you dated a cardiologists daughter when you were young. And you did not get a degree in business at UPenn.
See? Only what you've posted on this site.
I don't see your point. I've said in this thread I've made shite up just like you have. I told you - stop making up bullshite about me and I'll stop making it up about you.
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