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re: Is Ben Roethlisberger the most overrated QB in NFL history?
Posted on 1/26/11 at 8:31 am to lagniappe09
Posted on 1/26/11 at 8:31 am to lagniappe09
quote:
Guy just wins.
by himself? I didn't know he was also the defensive cooridinator
Posted on 1/26/11 at 8:39 am to H-Town Tiger
Max Hall beat the Saints, too. Don't you remember all of the TDs he lead their offense to in that game?
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:05 am to iwyLSUiwy
Facts:
2004: 5th in QB rating (22nd in yards)
2005: 3rd in QB rating (21st in yards), won SB
2006: 21st in QB rating (8th in yards)
2007: 2nd in QB rating (14th in yards)
2008: 24th in QB rating (14th in yards), won SB
2009: 5th in QB rating (7th in yards)
2010: 5th in QB rating (18th in yards)
Given those numbers, which are somewhat inconsistent, I consider him a top 5 quarterback. It is well documented that he has many 4th quarter comeback wins, while playing on a team with the best defense of this era.
Combined with those regular season numbers, and his postseason record, he has to be rated as a very good quarterback at worst. I haven't seen many analysts mention him as the best in the league. If he wins another SB, only Brady will have as many as him (and Brady is considered the best by a lot of analysts).
tier 1: Manning, Brady, Brees
tier 2: Ben, Rodgers, Rivers
etc
2004: 5th in QB rating (22nd in yards)
2005: 3rd in QB rating (21st in yards), won SB
2006: 21st in QB rating (8th in yards)
2007: 2nd in QB rating (14th in yards)
2008: 24th in QB rating (14th in yards), won SB
2009: 5th in QB rating (7th in yards)
2010: 5th in QB rating (18th in yards)
Given those numbers, which are somewhat inconsistent, I consider him a top 5 quarterback. It is well documented that he has many 4th quarter comeback wins, while playing on a team with the best defense of this era.
Combined with those regular season numbers, and his postseason record, he has to be rated as a very good quarterback at worst. I haven't seen many analysts mention him as the best in the league. If he wins another SB, only Brady will have as many as him (and Brady is considered the best by a lot of analysts).
tier 1: Manning, Brady, Brees
tier 2: Ben, Rodgers, Rivers
etc
This post was edited on 1/26/11 at 9:06 am
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:06 am to H-Town Tiger
quote:How does he find time to play qb and dc and still rape women? Dude's underrated.
I didn't know he was also the defensive cooridinator
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:09 am to Boh
Yards is a horrible measure for QB quality. Rating is slightly better, but it doesn't take everything into consideration.
Rings is the worst argument known to man.
Rings is the worst argument known to man.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:12 am to Sophandros
quote:
Yards is a horrible measure for QB quality. Rating is slightly better, but it doesn't take everything into consideration.
Agree that yards doesn't measure quality, but rather it better measures what a QB is asked to do for his team to win.
Rating is a pretty good measure for quality play. It measures just that... the quality of what is done on the field. He has had some horrid performances in single games, and sub-par seasons for himself.
Overall though he is a really really good player, and his numbers show that he has performed well at quarterback
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:16 am to Sophandros
quote:
Rings is the worst argument known to man.
Tell that to Dan Marino. His career was incomplete because of it...
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:18 am to gatorrocks
quote:Trent Dilfer has a complete career?
Tell that to Dan Marino. His career was incomplete because of it...
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:20 am to gatorrocks
quote:
Tell that to Dan Marino. His career was incomplete because of it...
But it in no way diminishes how good of a QB he was.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:21 am to Boh
quote:
Overall though he is a really really good player, and his numbers show that he has performed well at quarterback
No one is disputing that.
What we're disputing is the contention that he is one of the all time greats. I contend that he's not even in the top 5 among his peers, as determined by the quarterbacks whose careers have overlapped his. Basically, I'm saying that I can name at least two quarterbacks not named Brady, Brees, or Peyton Manning who are better than Ben who had significant playing time during Ben's career.
In fact, I can name more than two.
In no particular order:
Warner
Rivers
Rodgers
Favre
And there are some others that you could really argue about, but that's another story. Bottom line is that Ben is a top ten QB of his era, which does NOT necessarily qualify him as one of the top QBs of all time. Because people want to call him one of the top five in his era and one of the top of all time, he's over rated.
Remember, "over rated" does not necessarily mean "not good" or even "not great". It just means "not as great as the hype that several people assign to this individual, but we can understand why their judgement is flawed".
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:21 am to gatorrocks
quote:
Rings is the worst argument known to man.
Tell that to Dan Marino. His career was incomplete because of it...
of course everyone wants to win a SB, what Soph is saying judging a QB on that alone or even worse playoff record, is stupid, those are team accomplishments. Take Marino off the 84 Dolphins and replace him with David Woodley, they get no where near 14-2 or the SB. And the 84 49er's where just better, they had a better record and much better defense.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:28 am to Sophandros
quote:
And there are some others that you could really argue about, but that's another story. Bottom line is that Ben is a top ten QB of his era, which does NOT necessarily qualify him as one of the top QBs of all time. Because people want to call him one of the top five in his era and one of the top of all time, he's over rated.
Remember, "over rated" does not necessarily mean "not good" or even "not great". It just means "not as great as the hype that several people assign to this individual, but we can understand why their judgement is flawed".
I agree with everything you said... I just lump Rodgers and Rivers into tier 2 (of current qb) with Roethlisberger.
I wonder how many fans/analysts/players would consider him a top 10 qb of all time. I think that would be a stretch... Aikman won 3 SB and he isn't considered an all time great compared to the other names of old.
The rings argument is overplayed when it comes to quarterback play. Brady has put up great numbers (td/int and rating) in addition to his 3 rings, which is why I think noone really has a problem with him being considered a top 10 qb of all time.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:45 am to St Augustine
quote:
EXACTLY
the dude has won 2 superbowls LARGELY because of defense (his 2nd having the greatest defensive play in superbowl history). His 1st superbowl ring was won in spite of him....over half the qbs in the league would have won that game with that team.
The same exact thing could be said for Brady's first two superbowls.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 9:50 am to TulaneTigerFan
No. Eli Manning is currently the most overrated QB.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:08 am to Boh
quote:
The rings argument is overplayed when it comes to quarterback play. Brady has put up great numbers (td/int and rating) in addition to his 3 rings, which is why I think noone really has a problem with him being considered a top 10 qb of all time.
He also passes the laugh test. When you watch him play, you can SEE why his stats are great. In his case, the stats and the scouting supplement each other.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:14 am to SJS Eagle 85
quote:
Trent Dilfer has a complete career?
Abso-freaking-lutely...
Anyone remember what happened in 2008 SB? I do...
A little more than two minutes left in the game, defense blows its coverage and Fitzgerald goes down for a 60 yard TD.
Ben takes the offense down the field and throws the game winning TD. Something he's done how many times now?
He doesn't have the stats.... but he's one of the best QB's in the league. Rivers has the stats and had a KILLER defense this year and they missed the playoffs.
If anything, Rivers ability to win games is what causes him to be considered overrated.
Either way, Ben has the rings and the only other guy that can say "rings" right now is Brady. All the other are on the outside looking in.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:19 am to gatorrocks
If the first half doesn't end in perhaps the greatest defensive play in the history of the NFL, then Ben doesn't have his second ring.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:20 am to Boh
quote:
I agree with everything you said... I just lump Rodgers and Rivers into tier 2 (of current qb) with Roethlisberger.
Rodgers is one of the best QB's that I have seen play. I think he's better than Manning, Brees, and Brady as far as what he does. I'm not saying that he is going to have a better career than Manning and Brady, but he impresses me more than any other QB. I don't think Manning and Brady would be superstar QB's behind Green Bay's oline.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:21 am to Boh
quote:
Given those numbers, which are somewhat inconsistent, I consider him a top 5 quarterback. It is well documented that he has many 4th quarter comeback wins, while playing on a team with the best defense of this era.
Plus Pitt is a heavy run first team so he doesn't get the advantage of having the defense guessing whether run or pass.
Side note, Bradshaw is thought of (and rightfully so) as being in the discussion of GOAT QB and he never had a 300 yd passing game.
Posted on 1/26/11 at 10:21 am to gatorrocks
quote:
He doesn't have the stats.... but he's one of the best QB's in the league. Rivers has the stats and had a KILLER defense this year and they missed the playoffs.
come on. They didn't miss the playoffs because of Rivers, they lost games because their special teams were atrocious. Rivers was the bright spot on that team and I fricking hate Rivers.
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