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Would Messi have to win a WC to be considered the Greatest of All-Time?
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:38 am
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:38 am
SI article on Barcelona got me thinking...should Messi be "punished" on the all-time scale if he never wins the World Cup? (When he eventually retires, of course.)
Discuss.
quote:
The résumé Messi has already produced at age 25 only begins to make the case: a world-record 73 goals in all club competitions last season, including an unprecedented five in one Champions League game; 252 goals and 89 assists in 331 Barça appearances at week's end; three Champions League and five Spanish league titles; and three straight world player of the year awards, also unprecedented. Already he has joined Pelé and Diego Maradona in the debate over the greatest player of all time, and while detractors note that Messi has yet to win a World Cup (Pelé won three, Maradona one), it's also true that the sport has changed since the days of those older stars. The Champions League is now viewed in many precincts as a superior competition to the World Cup because it features more top players, a bigger sample size and a higher level of play that international soccer's marquee quadrennial event. Pelé never played club soccer in Europe, while Maradona never won the top European club crown, which was decided by a smaller-scale tournament during his career. If Messi keeps winning the most important club trophies and putting up off-the-charts numbers with Barça, he may not need the World Cup to be called the greatest.
Discuss.
This post was edited on 10/10/12 at 9:39 am
12
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:40 am to WarSlamEagle
Not for me, but for others yes. If Argentina didn't have Maradona as coach in 2010, it could have been their year.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:49 am to WarSlamEagle
I don't necessarily think so. The World Cup is damn hard to win and if you're lucky, you'll play in four in your lifetime. He also got the unlucky task of playing during this Spanish Armada. He is, I think, going to have to do something more than dominate La Liga. He simply hasn't shown up on the international scale at all
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:50 am to WarSlamEagle
I would say no as well. Messi's teammates are a huge reason why he has the chance to be considered the GOAT, and he doesn't have that level of talent next to him in Argentina.
Don't get me wrong, the Argentinians are great soccer players, but they're not FCB-level.
I think Messi could go down as the greatest because he would be the best player on possibly the best club team of all-time. His stats are mind-boggling.
And this...
...speaks volumes in this debate.
Don't get me wrong, the Argentinians are great soccer players, but they're not FCB-level.
I think Messi could go down as the greatest because he would be the best player on possibly the best club team of all-time. His stats are mind-boggling.
And this...
quote:
Pelé never played club soccer in Europe, while Maradona never won the top European club crown,
...speaks volumes in this debate.
This post was edited on 10/10/12 at 9:52 am
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:51 am to WarSlamEagle
No. It would help his legacy but if he continues his current pace, he'll go down as the GOAT regardless of his international success.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 9:55 am to hendersonshands
I am torn on this, not sure if he would have to win one but if he had some spectacualr performances and his team let him down in some way that might be enough.
For me though you have to show up in the bigest stage, much like jordan did in basketball so many times. This has been my complaint with ronaldo, especially when he was at Man U he just didn't come thru when the lights were brightest.
For me though you have to show up in the bigest stage, much like jordan did in basketball so many times. This has been my complaint with ronaldo, especially when he was at Man U he just didn't come thru when the lights were brightest.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:34 am to WarSlamEagle
No. No further words are needed.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:40 am to LSUSOBEAST1
He will win one so that answers that. 
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:40 am to WarSlamEagle
frick no
it's a team stat, first of all...PLUS it's a tourney that a player's national team gets a shot at maybe 3 times in his career
it's a team stat, first of all...PLUS it's a tourney that a player's national team gets a shot at maybe 3 times in his career
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:44 am to rsande2
I have a unique opinion on the GOAT so I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I don't consider Maradona or Pele the GOAT. As such, Messi isn't to the point where I could call him that either. I think he has surpassed the aforementioned players, but I consider Cruyff as the GOAT, because he not only dominated soccer (like messi and maradona and pele) but he also CHANGED the landscape of soccer. He pioneered a playing style (along with his coach at Ajax, forget his name) that is used by arguably the most dominant team in club football history.
He have seen players dominate the game and master their respective trades on the field, yes Messi is especially great, but I think a player needs to do more than just dominate. Otherwise, there is no GOAT, because Pele, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Beckenbauer, Muller, the real Ronaldo, Baresi, Carlos Alberto, Iker, Yashin, Banks, and tons of other guys all can lay some kind of claim to the title.
He have seen players dominate the game and master their respective trades on the field, yes Messi is especially great, but I think a player needs to do more than just dominate. Otherwise, there is no GOAT, because Pele, Maradona, Platini, Zidane, Beckenbauer, Muller, the real Ronaldo, Baresi, Carlos Alberto, Iker, Yashin, Banks, and tons of other guys all can lay some kind of claim to the title.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:53 am to lesismeaurx
i pick cryuff as well, fwiw
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:57 am to WarSlamEagle
the first thing he'd have to do is be the best on the planet right now.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 11:08 am to Tennessee Jed
To mainstream Americans yes, to anybody else no.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 7:23 pm to WarSlamEagle
Obviously no. I am glad to see that the soccer board is smart enough to mix team accomplishments and individual stats. It is probably my biggest peeve pet with sports fans (and people in general).
Why should Messi be penalized for that? What if he played for American Somoa (who notoriously lost 31-0 to Australia
)?
Why should Messi be penalized for that? What if he played for American Somoa (who notoriously lost 31-0 to Australia
)?
Posted on 10/10/12 at 8:10 pm to WarSlamEagle
If he had capped with Spain instead of Argentina he'd already be considered the GOAT.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 8:11 pm to TN Bhoy
And Dandy's penis would have fallen off from beating off to Spanish Messi so frequently.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 8:51 pm to Vicks Kennel Club
I agree with most of you saying that Argentina wouldn't have to win the WC for Messi to be considered the greatest ever.
However, it would help that he continue to change the impression many have (much from Argentine fans) that he hasn't consistently played all that great for La Selección.
However, it would help that he continue to change the impression many have (much from Argentine fans) that he hasn't consistently played all that great for La Selección.
Posted on 10/10/12 at 10:52 pm to WarSlamEagle
They might have the best attack (certainly top 3 if healthy) in this upcoming world cup. How is their backline outside of Zabaleta?
Posted on 10/10/12 at 11:19 pm to acgeaux129
quote:
They might have the best attack (certainly top 3 if healthy) in this upcoming world cup.
Based on sheer talent and depth I'd go ahead and say top 1.
quote:
How is their backline outside of Zabaleta?
OK but nothing near their ridiculous proliferation of world class players in the attacking third.
Their best CB pairing at the moment is probably Nicolas Burdisso (Roma) and Dimichelis (Malaga) or maybe Coloccini (Newcastle).
Of course, the have Javier Mascherano too if he doesn't play DM.
Seems they've had a pretty steady interchange of solid yet never spectacular fullbacks recently.
They do have some younger CBs that look promising thinking forward to 2014 like Otamendi at Porto, Fernandez at Napoli et al
This post was edited on 10/11/12 at 1:33 am
Posted on 10/10/12 at 11:37 pm to wm72
Also anyone who watches Argentina will note that Messi often plays as basically an advanced midfielder. Without a true centermid or even a good DLP, Messi happily drops deep to receive the ball and setup the attack. This also allows for two of Tevez, Aguero or Higuain to play at the same time. Luckily Messi may not have to share this creative burden for much longer, if Javier Pastore, Ever Banega or Erik Lamela mature into the creative midfielder Argentina needs.
ETA: The new Argentina manager Alejandro Sabella plays Messi in a support striker role now. He still drops into the midfield to get the ball, but not quite at same depths.
ETA: The new Argentina manager Alejandro Sabella plays Messi in a support striker role now. He still drops into the midfield to get the ball, but not quite at same depths.
This post was edited on 10/10/12 at 11:53 pm
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