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re: Card-Happy Referees in Big Games

Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:32 pm to
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
7797 posts
Posted on 4/21/17 at 10:32 pm to
quote:

There's a middle ground to stopping play and carding, and the extremes of both end up at the same place: either players foul excessively because they can do so with impunity or play is stopped excessively because you can't do anything.

From a preventing a shitshow perspective, I'd rather referees pull cards out early. People (not necessarily you) regularly bitch on here when a Premier League game goes south because the referee doesn't have the balls to show a card. It's a difficult balance for referees everywhere.

I wouldn't want diving to be punished harder without replay. Referees can't even enforce the offside rule correctly, because it's difficult. I would hate for someone to get sent off in a big game for "diving."

Of course, replay presents its own problems. Everything looks ridiculous in 5x's slow motion, and sometimes shite just isn't anything, not a foul or a dive.



I completely agree with all of this.

A recent pet peeve is hearing so many commentators say "if it's not a foul, then you have to card for a dive". For me, the larger percentage of borderline plays are a bit of contact that probably doesn't merit a foul--especially penalty-- but there is some contact and you can't really call the player going down, or looking for a foul, a "dive". Just play on.


I'd also add that letting so much "physical" play go ranks pretty far down the list of reasons the EPL is so popular outside of England, if it ranks as a positive at all. Excellent television production, marketing, buying household names whether they fit the team or not and simply being in English (along with English commentators being pretty entertaining) are, by far, the biggest reasons.

The "style" that leads to more action in the box is much more due to willy nilly, open attacking play where defenses seldom stay compact and organized than officials simply not calling fouls tightly. Most EPL matches play out for 90 minutes like continental ones where a team is desperately chasing a goal in the waning moments (or Roma trying to protect a one goal lead in extra time ).



If anything, consistency is always the issue with officiating in big matches and EPL officiating has never struck me as particularly consistent (certain fouls always being yellow/red cards or even that clearly cynical fouls are carded 100& of the time like in some other leagues.)

I tend to think officials in the biggest CL matches (like in the biggest league matches occasionally) often suffer the pressure a bit regardless of where they are from and make inconsistent calls they would likely call differently in a regular league match.

As a Roma fan, I'm fine seeing De Rossi carded for an obligatory rush of blood and bad tackle or horseback riding Higuain through the area on a corner. I just need a little vacation from football when it happens after I've seen Chiellini do the same thing four times in the match without a card.




This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 10:45 pm
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
50247 posts
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:32 pm to
Bumba!

quote:

Excellent television production, marketing, buying household names whether they fit the team or not and simply being in English (along with English commentators being pretty entertaining) are, by far, the biggest reasons.
Posted by thenry712
Zasullia, Ukraine
Member since Nov 2008
15795 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 12:10 am to
This is a terrible argument. The highest profile "card happy" game you seem to forget was the 2010 World Cup final...refereed by an Englishman, who totally lost control of the game. Howard Webb kept carding players for persistent fouling, but wouldn't send anyone off until Heitenga late into extra-time. The Dutch played like thugs throughout the match, and were nearly rewarded by Webb's leniency had Robben gone to ground while Puyol was grabbing him. An earlier red card or two would have made that game worth watching.

Yellow cards are meant to calm the game down, yes, but it often has the opposite effect. Players are smart enough to foul in ways that won't get them sent off, or even carded. Referees are naturally much less hesitant to hand out red cards, out of a fear of sending someone off for a dubious foul. Knowing this, some teams foul persistently as a tactic. From my observations, Atletico does this quite well. They'll rotate players fouling in order to avoid a red, but pick up an occasional yellow.

>

Remember this shite?
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
50247 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 12:17 am to
Funny thing about this photo (wherein we see an unfortunate red card incident) was that the guy on the left should have been in the showers after the first twelve minutes of the match.
This post was edited on 4/22/17 at 12:21 am
Posted by mynamebowl
Houston
Member since Jun 2012
1712 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 12:55 am to
quote:

RandySavage


Stop making me like you.
Posted by mynamebowl
Houston
Member since Jun 2012
1712 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 1:00 am to
quote:

thenry712


One example. You stumped me bud, congrats. That game was an outlier and a terrible rebuttal. What I'm referring to is the soccer cultures that allow cheap, weak arse fouls to be acceptable called at a much higher rate than what I see in the English League. I'm right.
Posted by mynamebowl
Houston
Member since Jun 2012
1712 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 1:00 am to
quote:

thenry712


One example. You stumped me bud, congrats. That game was an outlier and a terrible rebuttal. What I'm referring to is the soccer cultures that allow cheap, weak arse fouls to be acceptable called at a much higher rate than what I see in the English League. I'm right.
Posted by mynamebowl
Houston
Member since Jun 2012
1712 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 1:07 am to
quote:

'd also add that letting so much "physical" play go ranks pretty far down the list of reasons the EPL is so popular outside of England,


Agreed. And to be fair, that's not what I was trying to convey. if it came cross that way, it wasn't intentional.

quote:

I tend to think officials in the biggest CL matches (like in the biggest league matches occasionally) often suffer the pressure a bit regardless of where they are from and make inconsistent calls they would likely call differently in a regular league match.


Correct. And my answer to that one was get better refs and train them so that their skillsets can translate from league matches to Continental tournament style games more consistently.
This post was edited on 4/22/17 at 1:08 am
Posted by mynamebowl
Houston
Member since Jun 2012
1712 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 1:09 am to
quote:

it's funny because you actually believe that


Yes. I believe it because it is true. Everything I said in this post is factually correct.
Posted by wm72
Brooklyn
Member since Mar 2010
7797 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 2:00 am to


quote:

And my answer to that one was get better refs and train them so that their skillsets can translate from league matches to Continental tournament style games more consistently.




Not sure what you can do aside from getting the ones that have handled the biggest domestic matches and have a history of doing well in FIFA and UEFA matches.

I mainly just disagree about the league styles really being much of a factor.


For example, Nicola Rizzoli is probably the current Serie A official getting the most big UEFA/FIFA matches.

He's gotten a decent amount of praise for keeping the flow of matches going.


However, his most controversial decisions by far have both been NOT giving red cards. He seemingly missed how bad the tackle was that broke Luke Shaw's leg in Europa League and also held back giving a red card to Gareth Bale for an awful tackle in a Wales / Ireland qualifier that led to an immediate "retribution" foul in which Seamus Coleman's leg was broken.

I know it's just a couple of examples but I'd also guess the message from UEFA after these incidents was about importance of protecting player safety and not being too hesitant to show a warranted red.

Another issue for officials is that players are so much more amped up for the big CL or national team matches that "dangerous" tackles seem more common.




Posted by RandySavage
Member since May 2012
30811 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 7:42 am to
quote:

The Dutch played like thugs


De Jong's tackle aside the Spanish were far more disgraceful in that game than the Dutch.

quote:

An earlier red card or two would have made that game worth watching.


lol you think an 11v10 game for 70 min. would have been worth watching? It's not Webb's fault the players were all full retard that game.
Posted by Caplewood
Atlanta
Member since Jun 2010
39156 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 8:12 am to
Go choke on a toomers lemonade, you fricking koont
Posted by RandySavage
Member since May 2012
30811 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 8:25 am to
Sounds delicious
Posted by Caplewood
Atlanta
Member since Jun 2010
39156 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 8:30 am to
It really does, maybe some BBQ house (rip) peanut butter pie to go with it....
Posted by Dandy Lion
Member since Feb 2010
50247 posts
Posted on 4/22/17 at 10:40 am to
quote:

De Jong's tackle aside the Spanish were far more disgraceful in that game than the Dutch.

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