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Message
re: Young British Muslim Woman Sets the Apologists Straight @Townhall Meeting
Posted on 5/28/17 at 11:46 pm to FooManChoo
Posted on 5/28/17 at 11:46 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
None of those apply to Christians.
ahh... well, you can tell Jesus that the Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians then:
Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, ‘The Scripture cannot be broken’ (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as ‘the commandment of God’ (Matthew 15:3) and as the ‘Word of God’ (Mark 7:13). He also indicated that it was indestructible: ‘Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished’ (Matthew 5:18).
When dealing with the people of his day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: ‘Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?’ (Matthew 22:31); ‘Yea; and have you never read, “Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou has prepared praise for thyself”?’ (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and ‘Have you not read what David did?’ (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and he trusted it totally.
The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.
so, keep moving those field goal posts and picking and choosing what matters in the Bible and what doesn't... the fact remains, Christianity has a well documented past of killing and persecution in the name of God, much like Islam does, as well as Judaism, and Hinduism, etc....
you can think i'm taking up for Islam, but you'd be wrong.... i'm just pointing out that Christianity isn't as unblemished as the followers would like to pretend it is, whether the atrocities they committed are ancient and in response or not... it doesn't erase the FACTUAL history of what happened...
This post was edited on 5/28/17 at 11:53 pm
1
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:02 am to chRxis
quote:Yes, but you want to use that to make an equivalent between Christianity and Islam. There is no equivalent, even in the Crusades. I said previously that anyone can justify their actions any way they want, but Christianity offers no rational justification for murder in its name. It is completely anti-Christian. As bad as the Crusades were, they were not "Christian" and yet they still pale in comparison to what Muslims did. Islam has murder written into the texts that Muhammad told his followers to abide by. The Bible has no such things for Christians to follow.
did they kill others or not, yes or no?
quote:You sound like a typical atheist or anti-Christian who googled "verses in the Bible that promote murder" or something similar, where you know nothing of the context and just want to use the text to beat Christians over the head with it. It won't work because you have no clue why the Bible was written and wouldn't listen if I expounded on the thousands of years of texts written about it. You claim to have once been a Christian yet your lack of teaching of the Christian faith is obvious. I'm sorry you were failed by your teachers and leaders.
because i'm pretty sure i KNOW what the Holy Book of Christianity says about that... Thou shall not, i believe... some dude name Moses was there... pretty sure there was a mountain...
quote:Christianity does not perform atrocities (people do), nor does it support any atrocities performed in its name, regardless of what people tried to do in the past. There is just no basis for it. You have to completely remove Christ from Christianity in order to do so.
look man, just admit, that there have been atrocities by BOTH religions... NEITHER is blameless in this....
quote:It's quite "holier than thou (Islam)" since it does not allow for murder in its name, unlike Islam, where Muhammed not only made up the Qur'an which commands murder in its name, but he performed murder, himself. There really is no comparison.
acting like your side is holier than thou, while having a pretty fricked up history, as it stands, is weak...
quote:Clearly you weren't "born again" if you say you aren't now. The Bible speaks of people like you (1 John 2:19) so I hope you repent and put your faith in Christ before it is too late.
that's one of the laundry list of reasons i no longer consider myself a Christian, though I was a born again Christian for a long, long time...
quote:Everyone is a hypocrite. At least Christianity admits it and teaches Christians to constantly be repenting of it. Christians are not made perfectly sinless after making their profession of faith. Sanctification takes the entire lifetime of a Christian and is only completed in death when all sin is finally removed. You are a hypocrite too, if you have any standard of morality you adhere to.
it goes hand in hand with the rampant hypocrisy and exclusivism you see all too often in Christianity today, as well...
What do you mean by "exclusivism" in Christianity? You mean the exclusivity of the message of Christ or salvation? Or do you mean how every denomination thinks they have it right (or more right)?
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:13 am to chRxis
quote:I define it as a continual increase in and spreading of the faith.
not sure how you define "flourishing":
You made it seem like Christianity was on the brink of being snuffed out until Constantine went crazy and made Christianity popular. That's not what happened at all. The passage you quoted also doesn't speak to the success of the Christian message being spread, but only shows that those who were not Christians didn't like them (duh, even Jesus said that would happen).
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:17 am to chRxis
quote:I guess they didn't, but it's also unclear on how they thought they were applying it. There is a distinction between the civil magistrate and the civilian when it comes to how the two should act. The civil magistrate (government) has the right and obligation to provide justice, even through execution, which is something civilians have no right or authority to do in Christianity. It's possible the rulers of the time thought they were both saving Christians and exacting justice on the Muslims who were perceived as declaring war on Christianity. Anything beyond that (hatred for Muslims, lust for power, desire for revenge, or any other reason that may have been behind those leading the charges) would have to be condemned.
guess they missed this line from the "good book":
Regardless of the reasons for the crusades, Christianity does not sanction murder in the name of Christ.
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:23 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You sound like a typical atheist or anti-Christian who googled "verses in the Bible that promote murder" or something similar, where you know nothing of the context and just want to use the text to beat Christians over the head with it. It won't work because you have no clue why the Bible was written and wouldn't listen if I expounded on the thousands of years of texts written about it. You claim to have once been a Christian yet your lack of teaching of the Christian faith is obvious. I'm sorry you were failed by your teachers and leaders.
not atheist... hate atheist, and realistically one can't truly be an "atheist"... to "know" there is no god, would mean you are omniscient... to be that, would essentially make you yourself "god", thus negating your original premise... at best, atheist can be a really shitty agnostic
yes, my pastor grandfather did a terrible job... and yes, i'm telling you the truth... July 2nd, 1990... at 10:02pm, from one of those little crappy tracts that people hand out... that's the moment i "accepted jesus"...
but since you are so schooled, please do explain why the bible was EVENTUALLY written, after about 70 years of oral translation... i'd love to hear this...
quote:
Christianity does not perform atrocities (people do)
oh... so, Islam shouldn't be blamed for these killings, either then, right? after all people perform atrocities, not religions...
quote:
Clearly you weren't "born again" if you say you aren't now. The Bible speaks of people like you (1 John 2:19) so I hope you repent and put your faith in Christ before it is too late.
nah, i'm good.... you do you, though...
quote:
What do you mean by "exclusivism" in Christianity?
you can only listen to certain kinds of music, watch certain types of shows, hangs with certain kinds of people, promote certain brands, etc... you know exactly of what i speak... don't act like 9 out 10 evangelical christians don't act like this...
quote:
you want to use that to make an equivalent between Christianity and Islam.
no, i really don't... Islam, on the whole, is more "murderous" than Christianity, hell, even non-believers of BOTH religions know that... no, what i'm doing is calling Christianity and it's followers out on their shite... simply ignoring the facts don't make them go away...
quote:
The Bible has no such things for Christians to follow.
again, quit picking and choosing... you either believe in the Bible as the "word of God" or you don't... trying to sit there and pick only the "good parts" while acting like the parts that DON'T support your argument aren't actually there is just pathetic, and you should feel ashamed... after all, the Old Testament, IS still part of the Bible, is it not? Unless that too has been modified to fit the narrative...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:30 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You made it seem like Christianity was on the brink of being snuffed out
no, you are going to that extreme with it.... it would have carried on, a minor religion, probably relegated to the region of origin and a few various outcrops along the Med. seaboard... but having the Roman Emperor give legal credence, as well a well paved path for it to flourish thereafter is what allowed it to reach the proportions it has...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:33 am to chRxis
quote:Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and He taught from it. What you are missing is the distinction between the moral law, the civil law, and the ceremonial law. Jesus came to fulfill the whole law, but when He did, the moral law of God was the only thing left for Christians to obey since the civil law was specifically for the theocracy of the physical nation of Israel and the ceremonial law was a sign post that pointed the way to Christ through bloody sacrifices and separation of the people from other nations. Those were done away with when Christ obeyed the law, died, was raised, and ascended into Heaven.
ahh... well, you can tell Jesus that the Old Testament doesn't apply to Christians then:
...
When dealing with the people of his day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament:
...
The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.
Christians are to still obey the moral law of God. Nothing in the moral law of God commands Christians to kill.
quote:[/quote]1. I'm not picking and choosing. What I'm saying is orthodox (traditional) teaching within Christianity and not some new-fangled interpretation to wriggle my way out of a tough spot. It's very easy: Christianity doesn't teach murder but condemns it entirely. The Old Testament relays history (not commands to Christians), civil punishments for crimes against man, the state, and against God (not applicable to Christians), and direct commands to the nation of Israel to wipe out specific enemies of God for judgment which were not on-going commands for Christians to obey. There is zero justification a professing Christian can make from the Bible for them to commit murder in the name of Christ.
so, keep moving those field goal posts and picking and choosing what matters in the Bible and what doesn't...
quote:Like I've said several times previously, anyone can use anything as justification for any action they want. The Bible provides no justification for a professing Christian to murder others. I could go on a rampage citing Ghandi or Mother Theresa as an example for why I'm killing people, but that would be insane for multiple reasons. There is no justification for murder for Christians in the Bible. Jesus taught the opposite of it.
the fact remains, Christianity has a well documented past of killing and persecution in the name of God, much like Islam does, as well as Judaism, and Hinduism, etc....
Again, there is no comparison between Christianity and Islam. Christianity cannot be legitimately used to justify mass murder because it's just not there in the text and you cannot find an example of Christ, the apostles, the disciples, or even the early church fathers setting an example of violence in Christianity. Islam, only other hand, has it right there in the text and was born of blood from the founder, himself: Muhammad. He and his followers spilled blood left and right in the name of their faith and set an example for followers of Islam until this very day. Apples and oranges.
quote:The factual history doesn't jive with what you want. Even if I were to concede your wrong view of the crusades (I don't), the crusaders would have been just as wrong to commit murder in the name of Christ as Joe Schmoe Abortion-bomber "judging" doctors for killing babies. There is no justification for murder in the Bible for Christians because it's just not there. It's clear that we are to forgive and pray for those who do evil to us and that God will judge the wicked, not us. Islam teaches in earthly punishment on the wicked by every-day Muslims. Civilians have authority by Allah to kill infidels. There is just no comparison now matter how much your hatred for Christ drives you to make one.
you can think i'm taking up for Islam, but you'd be wrong.... i'm just pointing out that Christianity isn't as unblemished as the followers would like to pretend it is, whether the atrocities they committed are ancient and in response or not... it doesn't erase the FACTUAL history of what happened...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:38 am to FooManChoo
quote:
You are a hypocrite too,
how so....
quote:
if you have any standard of morality you adhere to.
i do actually... i'm actually a really nice and caring person, and if you ever actually met me, and got to spend some time around me, you'd swear i am a christian or something of that nature... it's just that i don't feel the need to attach my morality to a theology, like you evidently do...
not that there's anything wrong with that... be a Christian, for god's sake, it don't make me a difference one way or the other.... i'm not trying to get dissuade you... i'm just simply saying Christianity hasn't exactly been "purely good" during it's history on earth...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 12:57 am to FooManChoo
quote:
What you are missing is the distinction between the moral law, the civil law, and the ceremonial law.
no, the Christian writer from the website i lifted that directly from is missing that point... talk to him... want his name?
quote:
(not commands to Christians)
Yet, Jesus himself found it important enough to say that you should STILL take it very seriously... but i'm sure you know more than that guy....
quote:
Again, there is no comparison between Christianity and Islam.
again, i'm not debating you on who's worse... both are pretty equally shitty, for albeit differing reasons, in my book...
quote:
Christianity cannot be legitimately used to justify mass murder
yet, historically, it FACTUALLY was... are you still even questioning this??
quote:
Apples and oranges
both have killed for their religion... how much, reasoning, which method, which time period is irrelevant, and very apologetic.... both have "spilled blood"... apples and, well, apples...
quote:
The factual history doesn't jive with what you want
The First Crusade arose after a call to arms in a 1095 sermon by Pope Urban II,... remind me again, who is all pope descendant from? i believe he was in the New Testament... i could be wrong... after all my grandfather and the other church leaders i interacted with sucked, according to you...
quote:
your hatred for Christ
1.) thought you weren't supposed to judge people 2.) quit making hyperbolic statements with language that infers that you ACTUALLY know me 3.) i don't "hate" christ...
it's that "jump to conclusions that aren't accurate" that a lot, and i mean a LOT of non-believers really dislike about modern day Christianity.... and if YOU are the example of what i'm supposed to be like, all Christian and shite, then nah, i'm DEFINITELY good, because i don't need to be a pretentious, smug a-hole to people on a message board...
quote:
we are to forgive
so, i'm guessing you are forgiving those Islamist extremist, then, right?
quote:
Christianity does not perform atrocities (people do)
again, since you conveniently didn't answer the first time...
so, Islam shouldn't be blamed for these killings, either then, right? after all people perform atrocities, not religions...
This post was edited on 5/29/17 at 1:01 am
Posted on 5/29/17 at 1:20 am to chRxis
quote:I agree with you, but that doesn't stop people from claiming atheism. It takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist, if not more. Agnostics are practical atheists, though. Either way, if you don't put your trust in Christ, you will perish like the atheist.
not atheist... hate atheist, and realistically one can't truly be an "atheist"... to "know" there is no god, would mean you are omniscient... to be that, would essentially make you yourself "god", thus negating your original premise... at best, atheist can be a really shitty agnostic
quote:The parable of the sower explains this pretty well. There are some who respond to the message of Christ and even call themselves Christians, but their faith vanishes when tested by the world in one way or another. The New Testament speaks of those who claimed to be brothers yet fell away. The verse I mentioned specifically states that those who are truly "born again" will not fall away and those that do were never truly born again to begin with.
yes, my pastor grandfather did a terrible job... and yes, i'm telling you the truth... July 2nd, 1990... at 10:02pm, from one of those little crappy tracts that people hand out... that's the moment i "accepted jesus"...
quote:We don't have exact dates on when the Bible was written down, only estimates based on of textual evidence within the letters and books as well as dating the earliest known manuscripts we have at our disposal. However, the reason why it took so long to write the New Testament was because the apostles were still alive for a long time after Christ ascended into Heaven, and these men were teaching the churches face-to-face and through letters. As the apostles were getting along in years and as more confusion was coming into the church through men trying to lead people astray, the writers wrote down the gospels and wrote letters that were to be distributed to the churches. These writings were copied and re-copied and passed along to other churches so that they, too, could have access to the teachings.
but since you are so schooled, please do explain why the bible was EVENTUALLY written, after about 70 years of oral translation... i'd love to hear this...
Eventually these writings (which were already accepted as scripture by the churches of the time) were officially codified in the canon of scripture as new books and letters were being written by false teachers and the need to take a stand on what was and was not scripture because necessary.
quote:Islam is a religion based on certain teachings that have been recorded for followers to learn, understand, and put to action. Christianity is the same way. The official teachings of Islam which have been written down and passed on to its followers have explicit language that commands those followers to commit acts of violence against those who are not of that same religion. The official teachings of Christianity that have been written down and passed on to its followers do not have explicit or implicit language that commands those followers to commit acts of violence against those who are not of that same religion (or those who are of that same religion).
oh... so, Islam shouldn't be blamed for these killings, either then, right? after all people perform atrocities, not religions...
The blame rests on the individual but if you want to judge an entire religion, you have to look at what it teaches and instructs its followers to do. You can do that easily enough with Islam because its source documents not only allow for violence but command it. The same canno be said for the source documents for Christianity.
quote:I won't deny what you say is true (though I think 90% is a bit high these days since so many are antinomians rather than legalists). Legalism is common in Southern and Independent Baptist circles. My grandparents made a big deal about drinking alcohol but didn't seem to blink when fornication was brought up. This is called legalism, wherein people make up their own laws that are not in the scripture but are binding on other believers. The Bible condemns this behavior. We have freedom in Christ and are told by the apostles that we are not to have a yoke on us that the Jewish fathers could not bear; we are saved by grace, through faith, not of our works. I'll stand with you and condemn those who make up their own laws and force Christians to abide by them.
you can only listen to certain kinds of music, watch certain types of shows, hangs with certain kinds of people, promote certain brands, etc... you know exactly of what i speak... don't act like 9 out 10 evangelical christians don't act like this...
quote:Again, killing in the name of Christianity does not mean that Christianity allows for killing. The crusaders (if we accept that version of history) do not represent true Christianity any more than Hitler did (He wasn't a Christian but many claim he was). I'm glad you believe that Islam is more murderous (I'd hope so!) but to represent Christianity as even being in the same league as Islam because of a fictitious view of the crusades is intellectually dishonest.
no, i really don't... Islam, on the whole, is more "murderous" than Christianity, hell, even non-believers of BOTH religions know that... no, what i'm doing is calling Christianity and it's followers out on their shite... simply ignoring the facts don't make them go away..
quote:I'm not a dispensationalist so I have a greater respect for the Old Testament than most professing Christians these days, but it's just not honest to claim even the Old Testament sanctions murder (it allows for killing in war and as a punishment for civil or ceremonial crimes, but not murder) or that it can be used to justify murder in the name of Christianity.
again, quit picking and choosing... you either believe in the Bible as the "word of God" or you don't... trying to sit there and pick only the "good parts" while acting like the parts that DON'T support your argument aren't actually there is just pathetic, and you should feel ashamed... after all, the Old Testament, IS still part of the Bible, is it not? Unless that too has been modified to fit the narrative...
I already explained the distinctions in the types of law in the Old Testament and they weren't all the same or had the same purpose. The moral law of God is what Christians are to subscribe to as it reflects the very character of God. The 10 commandments are a summary of the moral law of God and "thou shalt not kill (really it's "murder")" is still in there. As a Christian that accepts the whole Bible--both Old Testament and New Testament--I affirm there is absolutely no justification for Christians to kill in the name of their faith.
Posted on 5/29/17 at 1:23 am to chRxis
quote:It was a growing religion in spite of its peaceful nature and in spite of persecution of the faith. Whether Constantine gave it validity or not is no consequence to its existence, which is the point I was making to begin with. Constantine may have made it popular in Rome, but it was growing in spite of persecution that existed prior to the legitimacy it received from the Emperor.
no, you are going to that extreme with it.... it would have carried on, a minor religion, probably relegated to the region of origin and a few various outcrops along the Med. seaboard... but having the Roman Emperor give legal credence, as well a well paved path for it to flourish thereafter is what allowed it to reach the proportions it has...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 1:32 am to chRxis
quote:Everyone has a moral standard and no one lives up to it 100%
how so....
quote:I believe it's very necessary since without an objective moral standard (which God would have to be) you are left to create moral truth in your own mind, meaning there is no objective "right" and "wrong" to judge other moral standards by. I believe the objective truth of God's law is written on the hearts of mankind (as the Bible says) and that is manifested in the consciences of people, who know almost instinctively that murder, theft, rape, and other things of that nature are inherently wrong even though they can't be universally wrong in an atheistic worldview.
i do actually... i'm actually a really nice and caring person, and if you ever actually met me, and got to spend some time around me, you'd swear i am a christian or something of that nature... it's just that i don't feel the need to attach my morality to a theology, like you evidently do...
quote:Professing Christians haven't been purely good during the history of Christianity on earth, but Christianity as a religion or a faith has not changed; we still have the same scriptures that the early church had been given and the same truth that Christ gave to His disciples is with us today, none of which allows for killing in the name of Christ.
not that there's anything wrong with that... be a Christian, for god's sake, it don't make me a difference one way or the other.... i'm not trying to get dissuade you... i'm just simply saying Christianity hasn't exactly been "purely good" during it's history on earth..
Posted on 5/29/17 at 1:51 am to FooManChoo
quote:
hat doesn't stop people from claiming atheism.
and those people are fricking idiots...
quote:
Agnostics are practical atheists, though
not true.... that's your attempt to lump them together to make it fit nice and neat in a column for easy use... it's actually kind of insulting, tbh...
quote:
if you don't put your trust in Christ, you will perish like the atheist.
look, do you see me trying to convert you? please quit proselytizing in this thread... you aren't telling me anything, and i do mean ANYTHING i haven't heard 25 times over... can you at least do that?
quote:interesting... does the scripture say what constitutes "falling away"? or is it just assumed by the other members of his/her congregation? and what if the person is a believer, "falls away", and then comes back later? did the first time not count? just curious as to what excuse is going to be made here...
The verse I mentioned specifically states that those who are truly "born again" will not fall away and those that do were never truly born again to begin with.
quote:
The blame rests on the individual
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! which is why, regardless of religion, it's still terrible... arguing over the what not's and how for's is so myopic, yet it's CONSTANTLY done by those wanting to condemn Islam...
quote:
because of a fictitious view of the crusades
again, by papal decree, the Crusades were started... you can sit here all damn day and say it's "fictions" or whatever, but it doesn't change the history of what happened.... i'm not holding what happened during the Crusades against you personally, as a Christian... quit denying that there were Muslims, pagan, non-believers, etc. that died as a result of the Christianity led Crusades.... that is not debatable... that is historical FACT...
quote:
-I affirm there is absolutely no justification for Christians to kill in the name of their faith.
i agree... there is not justification... but that didn't stop the Crusaders... thats basically ALL i'm trying to get to... i've done wasted 4 hours of my life i'll never get back arguing with a guy who says the Crusades weren't Christians killing people even though there's so much recorded history to the contrary it's practically laughable to even try to defend the position...
but i gotta give it to you... you are certainly trying to... history just isn't on your side with this one bro... whether it was justified, or whether you personally view it as a Christian thing or not, the actual history states otherwise...
This post was edited on 5/29/17 at 1:53 am
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:06 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Everyone has a moral standard and no one lives up to it 100%
ok, that actually makes sense....
quote:
we still have the same scriptures that the early church had been given
somewhat... with all the different versions and denominations, along with the differing opinions of what was canonical or not, you got what YOU know of as the Bible, but it could have, and probably did, looked a lot different to the early church...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:11 am to FooManChoo
quote:
it's just not honest to claim even the Old Testament sanctions murder (it allows for killing in war and as a punishment for civil or ceremonial crimes, but not murder) or that it can be used to justify murder in the name of Christianity.
ok, so let me get this straight.... if it shows up, even explicitly, in the Bible, albeit in the Old Testament, then it's allowable, and justifiable because it was in war or as a punishment for a crime, or whatever....
but if it's in the qu'ran, it's just straight away murder, with no justification, etc....
because honestly, the qu'ran's violence reads very similarly to the old testament's... and though you seems to dismiss the Old Testament's killing as nothing more than punishments and justifiable killing, it's still in there... YOUR holy book... both have scripture that talks of killing non-believers, those that oppose their particular god, etc.... so why is one ok to explain as something innocuous, and the other is vilified?
because to me, they are BOTH terrible.... why would i want to associate myself with either religion, when the HOLY text has that much killing and violence?
This post was edited on 5/29/17 at 2:20 am
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:22 am to chRxis
quote:No thanks. There are many responses to that website already. I'm responding to you since you apparently agree with the writer of that site since you linked to it as evidence that Christianity teaches violence.
no, the Christian writer from the website i lifted that directly from is missing that point... talk to him... want his name?
quote:Jesus took the Old Testament seriously, as I stated previously. However, He did not come to enforce the civil and ceremonial laws on Christians. He was the Messiah that the law pointed to, and you don't need a road sign telling you how far your destination is when you are at your destination. That's why the moral law of God is still binding on the Christian while the application of it found in the civil and ceremonial law has been fulfilled and abolished. For example, we don't perform bloody sacrifices of goats and bulls any longer because Christ was the fulfillment of those types and shadows and we put our faith in Christ for our salvation.
Yet, Jesus himself found it important enough to say that you should STILL take it very seriously... but i'm sure you know more than that guy....
quote:While both religions are filled with terrible individuals, that is the result of sin, not Christianity. Christianity has Christ, who saves us from our sin. Islam has Muhammed, who went on a murderous rampage to convert people to his new faith when no one gave him a second glance when they tried to be peaceful. Oh, and he was also a pedophile.
again, i'm not debating you on who's worse... both are pretty equally shitty, for albeit differing reasons, in my book...
quote:I gave you the example previously of killing in the name of Mother Theresa or Ghandi, which is ridiculous on its face. I'll add to it using Martin Luther King Jr. as an inspiration for black people killing white people. It's ludicrous to do so because it goes against everything he taught. It's the same way when someone tries to justify murder using Christianity. There is no basis for it other than a claim, which doesn't hold water. That's what I'm saying: there is no legitimate way a person can use Christianity to justify murder. The Qur'an offers a legitimate way to justify murder, though.
yet, historically, it FACTUALLY was... are you still even questioning this??
quote:You seem to be missing on this: saying "praise Jesus!" while slitting someone's throat goes against what Christ taught. Saying "praise Muhammed!" while slitting someone's throat is actually following Muhammad's example and following the scriptures of Islam. As I've said time and time again by now, there is no justification within the Christian religion for murder, no matter what a murderer might claim. The same thing cannot be said of Islam, so just because both religions have had individuals murder in the name of their respective religions does not mean that Christianity can justify murder. The religions should be judged based on what they teach and how those teachings align with the actions of those who claim to follow those teachings.
both have killed for their religion... how much, reasoning, which method, which time period is irrelevant, and very apologetic.... both have "spilled blood"... apples and, well, apples..
quote:The Pope is not infallible, no matter what the church of Rome might say. The only head of the Church is Jesus Christ, and that is directly from the Bible.
The First Crusade arose after a call to arms in a 1095 sermon by Pope Urban II,... remind me again, who is all pope descendant from? i believe he was in the New Testament...
That said, Urban's sermon (it's variations are available online) not only pointed out that the reason for the crusade was to defend the Christians who were being murdered by the Muslims, but it also included a terrible statement that he, as Pope, could forgive sins for anyone who was killed battling the enemy. That's not how Christianity works, as faith alone in Christ alone saves people, yet dying in battle was good enough for the Pope. That's what the Muslims teach. Regardless, the Pope in his speech pointed out the reason for his command to battle the Muslims, and it was defensive rather than offensive. Not quite the same thing as what Muslims were doing throughout the region, killing, raping, and enslaving to expand their caliphate.
quote:I'm not judging your grandfather or other church leaders you interacted with because I don't know them or what they taught. I'm only judging your own knowledge based on what you've said thusfar. If that is an indirect indictment on your grandfather, then so be it, but I'm not targeting him. I'm merely stating that you are not arguing like a well-trained Christian, using the scripture to interpret scripture. You are arguing as an untrained Christ-hater that I see every day on this message board and elsewhere, who take common misconceptions and do some google-fu to come up with supposed "gotchas" against Christianity.
i could be wrong... after all my grandfather and the other church leaders i interacted with sucked, according to you...
quote:1.) I'm commanded to "judge righteous judgments", and I am not judging your soul, only giving you the same warning the Bible gives, that if you don't repent, you will perish in your sins.
1.) thought you weren't supposed to judge people 2.) quit making hyperbolic statements with language that infers that you ACTUALLY know me 3.) i don't "hate" christ...
it's that "jump to conclusions that aren't accurate" that a lot, and i mean a LOT of non-believers really dislike about modern day Christianity.... and if YOU are the example of what i'm supposed to be like, all Christian and shite, then nah, i'm DEFINITELY good, because i don't need to be a pretentious, smug a-hole to people on a message board...
2.) It's not hyperbole. John 3:20 says those who practice evil hate the light lest their evil deeds be discovered. The light, in this passage, is Christ, who is perfectly sinless, and comparison to Him forces us to see the sin in ourselves, which those who live in darkness hate.
3.) Perhaps you don't have a conscious hatred as you might experience with someone who has done you wrong, but the Bible says otherwise. You have already provided some very strong language towards Christianity which is based on Christ.
I'm sorry if you think I'm being smug and pretentious. I'm arguing against the assertion that Christianity and Islam are one in the same in terms of evil flowing from both. I'm telling you what I believe based on the Bible, not based on some opinion I have of myself. For the record, I'll say with Paul that I'm the chief of sinners and no one should emulate me in every way as some sort of super Christian. The message I proclaim is not my own and I am one of unworthy lips (or fingers, I guess) to share it. The truth tends to turn people off if they don't agree with it and makes enemies with the messenger.
quote:Of course. That doesn't mean justice shouldn't be served, though. I'm in no position to get revenge since that belongs to God. All I can do is forgive those who attack me and pray for their conversion.
so, i'm guessing you are forgiving those Islamist extremist, then, right?
quote:Yes, Islam should be blamed. Not simply because those who are killing are doing so in the name of Islam (that would go against what I said previously), but because Islam explicitly teaches these people to kill in its name (or in Allah's name, specifically) and their actions are aligned with those teachings.
again, since you conveniently didn't answer the first time...
so, Islam shouldn't be blamed for these killings, either then, right? after all people perform atrocities, not religions...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:41 am to chRxis
quote:Foolish, yes. Idiots? Not necessarily. Many brilliant people reject the idea of God. They are mistaken, but not stupid.
and those people are fricking idiots...
quote:Not intending to insult you, but let me explain. If you are agnostic, you are living your life as if God doesn't exist. That's what I mean by "practical atheist".
not true.... that's your attempt to lump them together to make it fit nice and neat in a column for easy use... it's actually kind of insulting, tbh...
quote:I'm not assuming you are the only one reading this. The Bible commands that Christians like myself share the gospel message of repentance of sin and faith in Christ. You can ignore it if you wish but hopefully someone else might respond to it. If no one does, then I've done my part regardless.
look, do you see me trying to convert you? please quit proselytizing in this thread... you aren't telling me anything, and i do mean ANYTHING i haven't heard 25 times over... can you at least do that?
quote:There is a concept of "backsliding", where a true believer may fall away temporarily and for a time but will eventually come back to the faith. I'm hoping you belong to this category. The other category is the person who was never regenerate (a true Christian) to begin with, and their falling away from the faith is the natural consequence of not being saved to begin with.
interesting... does the scripture say what constitutes "falling away"? or is it just assumed by the other members of his/her congregation? and what if the person is a believer, "falls away", and then comes back later? did the first time not count? just curious as to what excuse is going to be made here.
quote:The blame starts and ends with the individual but can extend to other "accomplices", such as an ideology that teaches what the individual performs. We have an example of this with laws against inciting violence.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!! which is why, regardless of religion, it's still terrible... arguing over the what not's and how for's is so myopic, yet it's CONSTANTLY done by those wanting to condemn Islam...
quote:What is taught is that Christians went on a killing spree, wiping out thousands of innocent Muslims in the name of Christianity, as an offensive strike by those who just didn't like people of another faith. The reality is that misguided religious leaders responded to a war that the Muslims started against other Christians and then did some terrible things along the way (which I won't justify). Fiction paints the crusades as blood lust started on a whim by religious politicians. Reality shows the crusades as a response to invading Muslims. I'm not denying that people died because of the crusades; I'm denying the typical and misinformed view of what started the crusades and why they existed in the first place. I'm also denying that any murder carried out during the crusades was justified by the scriptures (the basis for Christianity).
again, by papal decree, the Crusades were started... you can sit here all damn day and say it's "fictions" or whatever, but it doesn't change the history of what happened.... i'm not holding what happened during the Crusades against you personally, as a Christian... quit denying that there were Muslims, pagan, non-believers, etc. that died as a result of the Christianity led Crusades.... that is not debatable... that is historical FACT...
quote:This started with a depiction of Christianity and Islam being on equal footing because both religions are responsible for bloodshed. I was arguing that regardless of what someone says the reason is for why they kill, the Bible offers no justification for killing in the name of Christ, because He and His apostles/disciples taught the opposite of that. Islam, on the other hand, teaches the legitimacy of killing those who do not believe in Allah and his messenger, Muhammad. The two religions are worlds apart, regardless of what some might say, and the crusades are not a legitimate indictment of Christianity any more than Black Panthers killing white people is an indictment against MLK.
i agree... there is not justification... but that didn't stop the Crusaders... thats basically ALL i'm trying to get to... i've done wasted 4 hours of my life i'll never get back arguing with a guy who says the Crusades weren't Christians killing people even though there's so much recorded history to the contrary it's practically laughable to even try to defend the position...
but i gotta give it to you... you are certainly trying to... history just isn't on your side with this one bro... whether it was justified, or whether you personally view it as a Christian thing or not, the actual history states otherwise...
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:43 am to FooManChoo
quote:
Oh, and he was also a pedophile.
and if we know one thing about Christianity, it's that they have NEVER had a pedophile associated with them... like, ever.... you may wanna go re-read Matt 7:3-5 again, bro.... you need a refresher...
quote:
The Qur'an offers a legitimate way to justify murder, though.
sure, when taken out of context, just like you are claiming i'm evidently doing with the old testament stuff....
i mean, within context of course....
and of course you read the link, then come back and say how that is taken out of context too, because you are an expert in the Qu'ran too, right?
look, we ain't getting anywhere... you are going to hide behind that get out of jail free card of "but my faith" and that's cool... i used to do that too... i know what i was taught, and how i was supposed to look at the world in comparison to what i was taught.... but once i was i unshackled myself from the slavery that is the "religion" of Christianity and all the manmade bullshite that comes along with it, i've never been more free in my life...
but if it works for you, great... I'm not gonna lose anymore sleep over it, one way or the other... you talk a good game, but then again a majority of modern day Christianity does... perhaps you are the 1 of 10 that is actually doing what the frick they are supposed to be doing... i doubt it, but who knows... either way, i'm going to bed because we are spinning our wheels and before you starting speaking in tongues or some shite, i'm going to bed...
good night...
This post was edited on 5/29/17 at 2:51 am
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:47 am to chRxis
quote:I disagree. When the Bible as we know it today was canonized, it wasn't like picking numbers out of a hat. The scriptures were already widely accepted by the church and had been passed down from generation to generation (just like the Old Testament had). The only reason why it had to be officially canonized was because new writings started to appear that claimed to have the authority of scripture and new heresies were starting because of them. A council of churches had to come together to protect what was already known as scripture and condemn the heresies and the false writings that they were spawned from.
somewhat... with all the different versions and denominations, along with the differing opinions of what was canonical or not, you got what YOU know of as the Bible, but it could have, and probably did, looked a lot different to the early church..
I agree that there are a lot of differing interpretations of the scriptures, most of which come from a bad hermeneutic of reading the scriptures based on pre-existing bias rather than using the scripture to interpret scripture (looking at the clear passages to help us interpret the less clear passages). Throwing out the Old Testament is also not helpful since Christ taught from it (as you stated earlier) and it was the starting point for a continuous, covenantal relationship between God and His people.
Posted on 5/29/17 at 2:53 am to FooManChoo
quote:
I disagree
shocking....
i honestly think at this point, i could say the sky is blue, and you'd have something to be contrary about my position... "well, it's a blue wavelength on the UV spectrum, but i believe...."
"but"... that's probably the most common denominator in your threads...
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