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Question/Video about Ayn Rand's Objectivism
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:10 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:10 am
Philosophy of Objectivism- Bioshock
This video is actually part of a series. Start at 5:40 to see the contrast between Objectivism and modern day democrats like Barack Obama. Start at 5:00 to see Roosevelt speaking.
The video actually talks about Objectivism in the context of the Bioshock game. If you ignore the Andrew Ryan details and focus on the Objectivism parts, that is fine. It also compares Objectivism to Altruism.
My question is, are conservative following objectivism. I see similarities between what Rand believed and what most of you aspire for America to be.
Rand hated the New Deal created by Franklin Roosevelt.
Rand felt that people should give money out to the poor only by their own self-interest and not government enforcement.
Rand felt that outside of courts, police, and military, the government should not really serve another purpose.
It seems that she believed people would be civil to each through their own mutual capitalist interests.
I do see some moral flaws in her thesis. But I want to have an open discussion.
TLDR How does your political beliefs aligns with Ayn Rands Objectivism.
EDIT: I have read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.
This video is actually part of a series. Start at 5:40 to see the contrast between Objectivism and modern day democrats like Barack Obama. Start at 5:00 to see Roosevelt speaking.
The video actually talks about Objectivism in the context of the Bioshock game. If you ignore the Andrew Ryan details and focus on the Objectivism parts, that is fine. It also compares Objectivism to Altruism.
My question is, are conservative following objectivism. I see similarities between what Rand believed and what most of you aspire for America to be.
Rand hated the New Deal created by Franklin Roosevelt.
Rand felt that people should give money out to the poor only by their own self-interest and not government enforcement.
Rand felt that outside of courts, police, and military, the government should not really serve another purpose.
It seems that she believed people would be civil to each through their own mutual capitalist interests.
I do see some moral flaws in her thesis. But I want to have an open discussion.
TLDR How does your political beliefs aligns with Ayn Rands Objectivism.
EDIT: I have read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:10 am
9
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:13 am to volod
quote:
TLDR How does your political beliefs aligns with Ayn Rands Objectivism.
Generally, pretty closely - particularly core values. However, I'm a product of my times and I fall victim to the same emotional appeals of "for the children" and so forth, that have inculcated our way of thinking in the post-New Deal, redistributionist world.
Taxation IS theft (just may be necessary and reasonable under some circumstances). Liberty IS the answer to most problems (although the consequences of liberty are often messy).
However, it is tough in the modern media environment because the Alinsky school of Marxism knows all the right buttons to steer the conversation back into "How much Marxism?" rather than the "Should we even be doing Marxist things at all?"
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:17 am to volod
quote:*FEDERAL government.
Rand felt that outside of courts, police, and military, the government should not really serve another purpose.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:22 am to volod
I am a Rand idiot.
What are her moral flaws?
What are her moral flaws?
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:25 am to volod
I've read most of her books. She can be preachy, and her ideology as a form of structured philosophy has some big holes, but on the whole I agree with most of what she espouses.
I'm a cold-hearted logical and rational bastard though.
I'm a cold-hearted logical and rational bastard though.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:28 am to Stingray
Some believe that her stance against Altruism is an indication of lacking empathy.
However, in an interview, Rand said that love itself is almost like its own economy. Virtues are the currency. You generally love someone else by their virtues, and that love propels you to make a better life for them and for you.
But the center of this philosophy is self-love. Not love for your nation, or love for a king, or love for the common man.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:29 am to volod
I like her general ideas about dependence vs independence and limited role of the government, however I do not like her detestment of religion and feel that her social context if very dated and limited. I much prefer Camille Paglia's social narrative to Rand's. And although Paglia is an atheist she has a very strong appreciation and respect for all religions. And her approach kinda like "I'm gonna be really subjective and acknowledge it and go from there because being totally objective isn't obtainable"!
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:35 am to volod
quote:
But the center of this philosophy is self-love.
The way I express it - I take care of me and my own, so that keeps others from having to do it. I get that leaves some folks in the gaps.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:42 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
I take care of me and my own, so that keeps others from having to do it.
True, but it goes deeper than rejecting dependency on the collective. If Rand sees a person drowning in the river crying out for help and Rand is a bad swimmer then the altruistic thing to do is dive in and make the attempt at the risk of your own drowning. Rand's position would be to stay on the bank. She does not expect others to risk their lives for her and she's not going to risk her life for you.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:45 am to Zach
quote:
Rand's position would be to stay on the bank. She does not expect others to risk their lives for her and she's not going to risk her life for you.
But there is a deeper virtue here, as well. In a misguided attempt to rescue, you might generate 2 drowning folks for others to have to attend to. So, I don't see that kind of caution to be wholly selfish.
I'm not going to go into a building engulfed in flames without equipment (and I am not trained as a fire fighter or rescue worker) to attempt to rescue strangers. I will phone the authorities and try to gather as much information as I can and assist in ways that will not make anyone's situation worse than what it is.
Does that make me a bad person?
(ETA: For the record, I've done things that others might consider heroic, such as heading into Hurricane Katrina while others were headed out - but that was part of my job.)
This post was edited on 6/22/17 at 10:47 am
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:50 am to Ace Midnight
quote:
Does that make me a bad person?
Not in my eyes. But there was a prof who wrote about a position and I can't remember the name of it. I want to say 'the ethic' but that dealt with deep ecology. The prof might have been John Rawles. But the position was that even if there is a 99% chance you're gonna die it's still the moral thing to do. He stressed that it's not what you SHOULD do. It's the MORAL thing to do.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:53 am to volod
She's a really terrible philosopher. Her books are militant and cartoonish. Everything she says can be found elsewhere expressed more eloquently, especially the Existentialists from whom she borrowed heavily. She doesn't have a well-defined epistemology, and it amazes me that people find meaning in her work today. Part of it might be reticence from reading the Existentialists, as most of them were Marxists, while Rand remained on the right.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:55 am to Zach
quote:
even if there is a 99% chance you're gonna die it's still the moral thing to do. He stressed that it's not what you SHOULD do. It's the MORAL thing to do.
bullshite. Suicidal instincts do not provide an evolutionary advantage. And I believe suicide can be moral under a lot of circumstances.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 10:58 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
it amazes me that people find meaning in her work today
quote:
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:01 am to Ace Midnight
I wish I could tell you more about the philosophy but this is stuff I read in the 1980s and I haven't even thought about since then.
The reason I'm thinking of Rawles is because in his Theory of Justice he promotes Socialism as the only 'just' economy. When confronted with socialism's failures his response is 'I don't think we SHOULD have socialism. I'm saying that it's the only 'just' system."
IE, if an act succeeds of fails may determine whether it was 'wise' but it does not determine whether it was 'the right thing to do.'
This is why Democrats dismiss their policy failures as 'having a good motive.'
The reason I'm thinking of Rawles is because in his Theory of Justice he promotes Socialism as the only 'just' economy. When confronted with socialism's failures his response is 'I don't think we SHOULD have socialism. I'm saying that it's the only 'just' system."
IE, if an act succeeds of fails may determine whether it was 'wise' but it does not determine whether it was 'the right thing to do.'
This is why Democrats dismiss their policy failures as 'having a good motive.'
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:03 am to Zach
quote:
It's the MORAL thing to do.
That's dumb. I have good genes, so not dying is beneficial to society because I plan on having kids and teaching them right.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:03 am to TigerDoc
Just to be clear: Ayn Rand was not a conservative in any way shape or form. Even her economic philosophy is based on tenets not conservative in nature.
She was a materialist and a militant atheist. She despised Reagan
She was a materialist and a militant atheist. She despised Reagan
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:04 am to volod
To me, we have true ideologies divided up so people are off balance. In the US, the party of "you can't legislate morality" is the bigger believer in taking my money by force and giving it to the poor. While the party of "values" tends to be against social safety nets. I'm not advocating one way or the other; just pointing out that it's in interesting thing. Another strange phenomenon: the party of "liberty" is calling for a wall with armed guards on the border and party of "big govt" is against it. WTF????? Think about that.
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:04 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
a militant atheist
There's an understatement if there ever was one
Posted on 6/22/17 at 11:06 am to skidry
quote:
the party of "liberty" is calling for a wall with armed guards on the border
I was with you up until this.
There's no WTF here at all.
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