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HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Coto de Caza, CA
Member since Mar 2012
20674 posts
Online

Is it just a coincidence

that the countries with sophisticated welfare programs tend to be first world and extremely prosperous, while countries with virtually no welfare whatsoever tend to be dirt poor and miserable?


white perch
Northwestern St. Fan
the bright, happy side of hell
Member since Apr 2012
3881 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
Only rich countries can afford to buy votes. Poor countries get votes through intimidation.


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TN Bhoy
USA Fan
Sketty, Wales
Member since Apr 2010
49486 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
quote:


that the countries with sophisticated welfare programs tend to be first world and extremely prosperous, while countries with virtually no welfare whatsoever tend to be dirt poor and miserable?



Why would you create your own welfare programs when you can scam the UN into doing it for you?


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Zach
LSU Fan
Member since May 2005
70761 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
The cycle in the first world is:
a. freedom
b. prosperity
c. welfare
d. decline


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Zed
Alabama Fan
Member since Feb 2010
8301 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
Are you asking if a government safety net helps lead to prosperity? Some degree of prosperity is probably required to fund a significant safety net in the first place, though once implemented it probably helps maintain a middle class. Countries with a significant social safety net are functional, that probably has more to do with prosperity than anything.


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deltaland
Ohio State Fan
Member since Mar 2011
28112 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
quote:

that the countries with sophisticated welfare programs tend to be first world and extremely prosperous,


ORLY? Last I saw the European countries were in dire economic stress.



HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
A welfare system is difficult to put into place without an already existing amount of capital and wealth from which to take.


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Porky
Arkansas Fan
Member since Aug 2008
14507 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
Globetrotters of war always fail.
This post was edited on 1/26 at 6:14 pm


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ruzil
Southeastern LA Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Feb 2012
6698 posts
Online

re: Is it just a coincidence
Can't tell if serious? I hope not.


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Tigah in the ATL
LSU Fan
Atlanta
Member since Feb 2005
26407 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
your nuanced arguments will find no purchase here.


HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
He was not making an argument, he was asking a valid question.

As I said before, the reason that developed countries have welfare systems in place is because there has been enough accumulated capital for them to be established. The creation of a social 'safety net' does little to drive economic growth. Whether or not one believes it to be a valid use of government force is an entirely different matter.


white perch
Northwestern St. Fan
the bright, happy side of hell
Member since Apr 2012
3881 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
quote:

As I said before, the reason that developed countries have welfare systems in place is because there has been enough accumulated capital for them to be established. The creation of a social 'safety net' does little to drive economic growth. Whether or not one believes it to be a valid use of government force is an entirely different matter.



The safety net put there to buy votes. People will vote for the candidate that allows them to work the least.


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HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Coto de Caza, CA
Member since Mar 2012
20674 posts
Online

re: Is it just a coincidence
quote:

The creation of a social 'safety net' does little to drive economic growth. Whether or not one believes it to be a valid use of government force is an entirely different matter.


There are plenty of instances where gov't programs have worked wonders: Before medicare/social security, elderly poverty was around 40%. It hovers around 10% now.

That is success, imo.


HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
An additional question to that statistic is whether or not the programs were the cause of this or if greater economic growth in general was responsible.

Poverty levels in all demographics were higher before the 1930's (SS) and the 1960's (Medicare) than they are today. Correlation is not causation.


HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Coto de Caza, CA
Member since Mar 2012
20674 posts
Online

re: Is it just a coincidence
How does economic growth help oldpeople?
This post was edited on 1/26 at 9:20 pm


HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
The same way it helps anyone. We all enjoy the results of economic growth and innovation, regardless of age or income. Advancing in age does not preclude one from having access to new goods or technology.


HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Coto de Caza, CA
Member since Mar 2012
20674 posts
Online

re: Is it just a coincidence
quote:

The same way it helps anyone. We all enjoy the results of economic growth and innovation, regardless of age or income. Advancing in age does not preclude one from having access to new goods or technology.
Access to new goods does not decrease poverty.



HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
Only if poverty is defined relative to the wealth of others. When economic growth decreases the price and accessibility of new goods, as well as essential goods, we all benefit.

The amount of labor that it takes to satisfy one's first order needs are considerably lower today than at any other point in history.


HailHailtoMichigan!
Michigan Fan
Coto de Caza, CA
Member since Mar 2012
20674 posts
Online

re: Is it just a coincidence
Usually I'm quite conservative when it comes to social programs. I feel that they mutilate what it means to be human, but my opinion changes when it comes to children and older folks.

Those two are negatively impacted by the factor that is beyond anyone's control: age.


HempHead
Alabama Fan
Appalachia
Member since Mar 2011
20375 posts

re: Is it just a coincidence
I do not disagree that impoverished children and the elderly often need external help, but I do not view this as moral justification for the initiation of force. I do not believe that people would die in the streets without government programs.


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