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Message
I'm at an intellectual crossroad (Free Trade)
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:15 pm
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:15 pm
I've been a libertarian since my early teenage years and have, over that decade, moved further right towards Anarchocapitalism. Naturally I've been a proponent of free trade on multiple fronts, but, upon being educated on the importance of culture and genetics (the two are linked) on societies, the following problem, that has been presented by Vox Day, is something I can't get around:
With increased mobility of international workers and national entrepreneurs, the value of free trade diminishes as it erodes national cultures.
The brilliant economists that developed these theories were 100% correct, because, at the time, businesses and workers were fairly immobile and economies could develop to produce the most efficient goods while our Western Culture was simultaneously not weakened.
If non-Western cultures didn't suck this would be less of a problem, but we're faced with the decision of having Americans potentially move to non-Western cultures and replacing them with foreigners from often inferior cultures or seeing American investors start their initiatives in other nations where economic development is then fostered.
Please, make it easy on me and give me the solution
With increased mobility of international workers and national entrepreneurs, the value of free trade diminishes as it erodes national cultures.
The brilliant economists that developed these theories were 100% correct, because, at the time, businesses and workers were fairly immobile and economies could develop to produce the most efficient goods while our Western Culture was simultaneously not weakened.
If non-Western cultures didn't suck this would be less of a problem, but we're faced with the decision of having Americans potentially move to non-Western cultures and replacing them with foreigners from often inferior cultures or seeing American investors start their initiatives in other nations where economic development is then fostered.
Please, make it easy on me and give me the solution
30
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:18 pm to joshnorris14
You must remember that completely free trade is an economic theory
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:19 pm to CoachChappy
That doesn't really address the problem
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:19 pm to joshnorris14
Even Adam Smith himself thrived in a world where all the great powers practiced mercantilism. So-called "free trade" benefits international corporations and the third world at the expense of most of America. It hasn't delivered what it promised. It is time to find a better way.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:19 pm to joshnorris14
What Chappy said
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:21 pm to joshnorris14
Free trade is a good idea between similar nations economically, culturally, and ones that are in the same tier (1st world, second world, etc)
It is not good between 1st and 2nd, or any mix. As what will happen is developing nations have lower wages and less regulation to try to grow and out compete more developed ones. What happens in these trades is multinational companies move out and go to the cheap ones and sell thier product back.
We need to make trade tiers for each country to protect our own people.
It is not good between 1st and 2nd, or any mix. As what will happen is developing nations have lower wages and less regulation to try to grow and out compete more developed ones. What happens in these trades is multinational companies move out and go to the cheap ones and sell thier product back.
We need to make trade tiers for each country to protect our own people.
This post was edited on 12/1/16 at 6:22 pm
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:22 pm to russellvillehog
Thanks for your post, I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this topic so maybe it gives me another lens to look through and perhaps solve the problem
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:24 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
If non-Western cultures didn't suck this would be less of a problem,
What does "upon being educated" mean exactly?
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:25 pm to joshnorris14
I would in this theoretical thought make it like tax brackets in a way.
A country could industrialize into a new bracket or tier and the taxes and regulations for trade can change and make it easier on them.
This would make it more even across the board. It would hurt multinational businesses but be good for job security.
A country could industrialize into a new bracket or tier and the taxes and regulations for trade can change and make it easier on them.
This would make it more even across the board. It would hurt multinational businesses but be good for job security.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:26 pm to goatmilker
Being presented with new information that I had not previously accessed
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:26 pm to joshnorris14
Completely free trade doesn't exist in the manner that theorist describe it. Furthermore, it's an economic theory not a sociological one. Free trade will exist one day when the rest of the world gets their shite together. See Star Trek Unfortunately, we still have a bunch of backwards dicks on our planet. See Islam.
Last, the main problem with liberals is they want that Trekkian society at all costs and don't realize that it can't happen now.
Take green energy for example. Solar energy is without question the future of energy on our planet, but O&G is the present. Liberals want us to move to solar now even though the technology isn't ready.
Last, the main problem with liberals is they want that Trekkian society at all costs and don't realize that it can't happen now.
Take green energy for example. Solar energy is without question the future of energy on our planet, but O&G is the present. Liberals want us to move to solar now even though the technology isn't ready.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:27 pm to joshnorris14
If foreign workers are coming into the U.S. via free trade agreements, they're coming in because they have a skill that a company couldn't find from someone who had already applied for the job. So those foreign workers are usually high-skilled, which means they're educated and intelligent.
So they're not detracting from the intellectual depth pool. And the best example of that is Indian-Americans (from India, not native Americans), who have the highest median income of any ethnic group in America. We're generally taking the cream of the crop from other nations, apart from maybe Mexico and Central America, which is due to our proximity to those nations.
As for common culture, American culture has always been more flexible in assimilating newcomers. You can be an Indian and come to America and become American. That's harder to do if you're coming from France.
So they're not detracting from the intellectual depth pool. And the best example of that is Indian-Americans (from India, not native Americans), who have the highest median income of any ethnic group in America. We're generally taking the cream of the crop from other nations, apart from maybe Mexico and Central America, which is due to our proximity to those nations.
As for common culture, American culture has always been more flexible in assimilating newcomers. You can be an Indian and come to America and become American. That's harder to do if you're coming from France.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:27 pm to CoachChappy
I'm talking theory though. I'm not saying we have a free trade society now.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:29 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
I'm talking theory though. I'm not saying we have a free trade society now.
Ah, well basically it can't happen until developing nations/cultures get it together. Until then, the top tier nations get screwed.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:29 pm to russellvillehog
quote:
What happens in these trades is multinational companies move out and go to the cheap ones and sell their product back.
And we all get a far cheaper cost of living in the process.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:31 pm to joshnorris14
The best way that I explained it to my libertarian brother, is that free trade is great for your country when you are at manufacturing powerhouse. And that's the position that Adam Smith's England was in.
However what we are doing right now is not encouraging innovation, simply encouraging relocation. And if I factory moves to China, it will eventually automate in China. Without some kind of economic incentive to move it back to the united States, it will not do so. Free markets encourage innovation and efficiency, but if I fire nine guys in America and hire sixteen in China have I really made my business more innovative? No. I've simply cut costs
However what we are doing right now is not encouraging innovation, simply encouraging relocation. And if I factory moves to China, it will eventually automate in China. Without some kind of economic incentive to move it back to the united States, it will not do so. Free markets encourage innovation and efficiency, but if I fire nine guys in America and hire sixteen in China have I really made my business more innovative? No. I've simply cut costs
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:32 pm to maine82
Foreign workers come in to lower wages usually.
Some might be the way you are describing it, but the main purpose is to bring in lower developed world workers. They come here, get a lower wage and set the market value for the job at a lower rate. They believe they are making bank compared to thier home country wage. Both the company and the foreign workers are happy.
The American workers is hurt tremendously.
What we need to do is do a better job of is preparing workers, put a higher emphasis on training skills, and actually encourage companies to hire Americans through tax breaks,unlike how it is now to give tax breaks for hiring foreigners.
Some might be the way you are describing it, but the main purpose is to bring in lower developed world workers. They come here, get a lower wage and set the market value for the job at a lower rate. They believe they are making bank compared to thier home country wage. Both the company and the foreign workers are happy.
The American workers is hurt tremendously.
What we need to do is do a better job of is preparing workers, put a higher emphasis on training skills, and actually encourage companies to hire Americans through tax breaks,unlike how it is now to give tax breaks for hiring foreigners.
This post was edited on 12/1/16 at 6:34 pm
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:32 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
Please, make it easy on me and give me the solution
Forget it! There is no solution. The "global society" is a goal of the utopian progressives that will be achieved barring our self destruction.
With travel and communications continuing their advance to science fiction levels it will only be a matter of time before there is a declared world language, law and police force. Trump will be a bump in the road of history that merely slowed the march towards a homogenized global society for a decade or two. I'll be dead but I'll predict this all takes place before 2100. Maybe this global society is needed for mankind's survival, I'm hoping I won't be here to see it.
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:33 pm to joshnorris14
quote:
the value of free trade diminishes as it erodes national cultures.
Is this always the case? Has our national culture ever been static at a time in our history?
The New York riots in the 19th century against the Irish immigrants led eventually to what? A diminished American empire or a better one? Something in between?
Posted on 12/1/16 at 6:33 pm to maine82
I'm not talking about intellectual decay. Asian-Americans are 4 times as likely to be Liberal as Conservative
This post was edited on 12/1/16 at 6:34 pm
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