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Message
Help me understand this argument
Posted on 10/23/14 at 6:33 am
Posted on 10/23/14 at 6:33 am
In a conversation with a friend's dad, he said the following
I am unaware of any advancements in alternative energy that has been supported and advanced by the Obama admin (or any other) that have had such a significant impact on the price of oil. What am I missing?
Also in this conversation, I listed the following tax payer investments that declared bankruptcy. However, I couldn't find more specific info from after 2012 (Obama/Romney debate). Is anyone aware of where I can more updated info? (Yes, I googled but there hasn't been much reported on this since that debate.)
quote:
Alternative energy has been supported and advanced by his administration and has significantly contributed to the US now having huge oil reserves. With all the strife going on in the Middle East don't you think those OPEC players would be finding a way to exploit the situation and raise oil prices? Our demand from them and other countries is much lower now, thus lower gas prices. Better gas mileage performance in cars has also been pushed by this administration.
I am unaware of any advancements in alternative energy that has been supported and advanced by the Obama admin (or any other) that have had such a significant impact on the price of oil. What am I missing?
Also in this conversation, I listed the following tax payer investments that declared bankruptcy. However, I couldn't find more specific info from after 2012 (Obama/Romney debate). Is anyone aware of where I can more updated info? (Yes, I googled but there hasn't been much reported on this since that debate.)
quote:
A123 battery manufacturer - awarded $249M in grant money only spent $123M before bankruptcy. Was sold to another company as part of bankruptcy but federal dollars were lost bc it was a grant.
Abound Solar: Manufacturer of solar panels received a $400 million DOE stimulus loan guarantee to build two factories. Spent $70 million of the grant to build a Denver factory then declared bankruptcy. DOE lost $40-60M depending on the news source.
Beacon Power: Received a $43 million DOE stimulus loan guarantee to build a facility in upstate New York.The company spent $39 million before being sold. DOE got $27M of the loan back but no product.
Ener1: A subsidiary of the company, EnerDel, received an $118.5 million grant. Bankrupt, sold to Russian company, American tax dollars lost.
Solyndra - $535M loan from taxpayers. Gone. But only after hefty bonuses to executives just as most of the others mentioned above.
Fisker Automotive spent $200M of $529M government loan to develop electric cars before "putting the project on hold" due to low demand for electric cars.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:04 am to LSUGrrrl
Sure, renewable energy has increased but in relation to the other sources it still occupies roughly the same space, as you can see.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:07 am to LSUGrrrl
The expansion of fracking over the past decade dwarfs any costly advancements in renewable energy sources.
Fracking is one of the main reasons for the current collapse of the price of a barrel of oil.
ETA: Although CAFE standards have been inching up - no question the current administration has been aggressive in this area. Fuel efficient vehicle technology is another factor to be considered - but, again, dwarfed by fracking.
Fracking is one of the main reasons for the current collapse of the price of a barrel of oil.
ETA: Although CAFE standards have been inching up - no question the current administration has been aggressive in this area. Fuel efficient vehicle technology is another factor to be considered - but, again, dwarfed by fracking.
This post was edited on 10/23/14 at 7:09 am
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:10 am to Ace Midnight
So, is his argument that renewable energy advancements have impacted the lower cost of oil is correct but insignificant? This is something I didn't know and am interested in learning more about it if he is correct.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:10 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
Our demand from them and other countries is much lower now, thus lower gas prices.
Lower gas prices
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:18 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
correct but insignificant
you got it, the renewable growth is there but it still is not displacing other energy in significant ways.
Oil is, by far, the king for transportation and coal still occupies a huge space for electric power but is being pushed out not by renewables but by natural gas.
This post was edited on 10/23/14 at 7:23 am
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:37 am to constant cough
quote:
Lower gas prices
They have dropped CC - right around $3 in the Gulf states - of course that's still almost 2x what it was in 2008-2009. Something happened around that time that messed a bunch of stuff up.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:49 am to LSUGrrrl
Alternative energy advancements have contributed a pittance to the drop in the price of oil (and thus gasoline). Us using more of our own (via fracking) and the current in-fighting among OPEC have contributed faaaaaar more.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 7:56 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
So, is his argument that renewable energy advancements have impacted the lower cost of oil is correct but insignificant? This is something I didn't know and am interested in learning more about it if he is correct.
Have there been advancements in alternative energy since 2008 yes. However the advancements in fracking and other drilling methods far outweighs AE. Also just sit back and enjoy the OPEC infighting (unless you are vested in oil and gas) while it lasts. $2.50 gas won't last long.
Also are hybrids still considered "Alternative energy" tech?
Posted on 10/23/14 at 8:10 am to LSUGrrrl
Apparently government dollars + alternative energy = bankruptcy.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 8:13 am to LSUGrrrl
I'm all for healthy debate and friendly if heated conversation. But if this guy really believes what he's saying then I think I'd talk about things more suited to his intellect, like fashion or reality TV. And if he doesn't believe it then you're just feeding a troll by entertaining him.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 8:18 am to Bard
quote:
Alternative energy advancements have contributed a pittance to the drop in the price of oil (and thus gasoline). Us using more of our own (via fracking) and the current in-fighting among OPEC have contributed faaaaaar more.
Was my argument without specifying fracking. I just didn't know enough about the topic to know if his argument was valid and required more research on my part. I like to know if I'm wrong.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 8:22 am to McLemore
Oh, he believes it. And normally I walk away rolling my eyes. However, all of this is in response to a simple statement I made. He proceeded to be very condescending and insulting while copying several mutual business associates/friends. I can't let that stand if I'm correct. I just replied with the graphs below and told him that I was done with the petty argument.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 10:46 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
don't you think those OPEC players would be finding a way to exploit the situation and raise oil prices? Our demand from them and other countries is much lower now, thus lower gas prices.
OPEC's major customer is Europe, not the US.
OPEC has the power to increase oil prices simply by cutting production. The problem with that is a drastically decreased stream of capital. It's not like OPEC countries have diversified economies. They rely on selling oil.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 11:22 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
Alternative energy has been supported and advanced by his administration and has significantly contributed to the US now having huge oil reserves.
Not the case. The growth in reserves is directly related to the revolution in extraction technology.
quote:
With all the strife going on in the Middle East don't you think those OPEC players would be finding a way to exploit the situation and raise oil prices?
That's not how pricing works...The Saudis cut prices recently in order to defend Asian market share.
quote:
Our demand from them and other countries is much lower now, thus lower gas prices. Better gas mileage performance in cars has also been pushed by this administration.
It's true that US demand has decreased and is predicted to continue in that direction due to better energy efficiency in general. That's not because of Obama...it's because of demand.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 12:13 pm to cwill
So the high prices you were complaining about a few years ago weren't Obama's fault? You guys said so at the time. As far as our investment in alternative - I think investing in American companies is a good idea. Oil is a finite resource - some country is gonna get rich off of that alternative technology - see the internet. Gore didn't invent it but he damn sure funded it. In 83/84 he and a few other senators appropriated $500 mill for this thing called the internet. People you support made fun of him and called him Senator Atari. 10 years later lots of companies went bankrupt but a whole lot made a stack of money and so did their stock holders. What effect did the US "inventing" the internet have on our economy - near and long term? Some work out others don't but whatever technology they developed is US
Posted on 10/23/14 at 1:19 pm to crawdaddy52
quote:
So the high prices you were complaining about a few years ago weren't Obama's fault? You guys said so at the time.
I never complained nor did I apportion fault.
Posted on 10/23/14 at 4:28 pm to Zach
Well, he conceded all of my points and then replied:
Looks like I need to do more research on this topic.
quote:
Renewable energy in the United States accounted for 12.9 percent of the domestically produced electricity in 2013, 11.2 percent of total energy generation. As of 2014, more than 143,000 people work in the solar industry. Hydroelectric power is currently the largest producer of renewable power in the U.S. U.S. wind power installed capacity now exceeds 60,000 MW and supplies 4% of the nation's electricity. Texas is firmly established as the leader in wind power development, followed by Iowa and California. Since the U.S. pioneered the technology with Solar One, several solar thermal power stations have also been built. The largest of these solar thermal power stations is the SEGS group of plants in the Mojave Desert with a total generating capacity of 354 MW, making the system the largest solar plant of any kind in the world.The largest photovoltaic power plant in the world are the Desert Sunlight Solar Farm, a 550 MW solar power plant under construction in Riverside County, California and the Topaz Solar Farm, a 550 MW photovoltaic power plant, being built in San Luis Obispo County, California. The Geysers in Northern California is the largest complex of geothermal energy production in the world.Demand for petroleum products is declining worldwide. The thirst for oil is declining in Europe, where unemployment and industrial activity is down, and Japan, where the use of oil by utilities is being replaced by natural gas and coal. Slowing economic growth in China also plays a role in decreased global demand, says MoneyWatch. The Middle East oil cartel, Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, which wants to keep oil prices at $100 per barrel, has been forced by the market to decrease its prices. As of Monday, the international benchmark price per barrel was $85.25.
Looks like I need to do more research on this topic.
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