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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
14763 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

would guarantee you too many cops have been killed because of their instructed 'judiciousness.'


Then provide the links.

About 50 cops are killed feloniously every year. Why don't you dig through and show us where being slow handed resulted in them being killed. That's 50 people out of about 800,000 sworn officers.

FBI even has a category for "ambush" killings. It's very easy to discover the total.



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HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Member since Feb 2017
4943 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

It's not a civilians responsibility to know how to handle police officers. That's like saying I should be responsible for telling a waiter how to take my order.


OF COURSE it is your responsibility to know your rights you god damned idiot.

As for knowing how to "handle a police officer" how much fricking training does it take to learn "don't fricking fight the police, or run, when they are attempting to make an arrest? Seems to me that anyone with an IQ over 50 innately knows this.


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EA6B
Navy Fan
TX
Member since Dec 2012
5404 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

Turn off car
Keys on dash
Hands on wheel License in 1 hand
CC in the other


Google "harassment of concealed carry by law enforcement", and see what happens when a CC permit holder crosses paths with the wrong cops. There was a thread on here from a guy that did exactly as taught and Was removed form his car cuffed and placed on the ground with another cop pointing a gun at his head while the first cop removed his CC weapon.


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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
133732 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

But in run of the mill interactions with suspicious thugs, I will be on the side of the cop every time = until some real evidence surfaces that they acted badly.


I think many situations could easily be dealt with without animosity and violence, and end up with someone dead. If a dude runs who isn't committing a felony, let them go.

I really would like law enforcement focused on violent crimes and serious property crimes.


ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
21811 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

quote:
Obviously. I had it happen once. I immediately told the officer I was armed and did not move until she instructed me as to what to do.
======

This is what you should do.


But do you think this is how a free person, having committed no crime nor exhibited any hostile intent should be forced to act?


Of course this is what you should do. And what is this about being "forced to act?" There are inconveniences in life every day that I have to adjust to - some jerk on the freeway makes me miss my turn and I have to go 3 miles to get another exit is way more 'forcing me to act' in a way I don't want to.

And what else would you 'want to do' while the cop approaches you after you were stopped? If you had done nothing wrong, wouldn't you want to convince the cop you presented him no danger? Wouldn't you be aware that he knows nothing at all about you? How much of an 'inconvenience' can it be to present a complete benign situation to him?

I just don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy towards cops - especially from someone like you who seems so reasonable in almost every other situation I observe on this forum.


MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
14763 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

This indicates to me that you were never a cop.


I wasn't.

quote:

ROE applies to military, not police. In terms of when a LEO may use lethal force there are , obviously, rules in place, and they MUST be broader than what the average citizen has. For example, in most states an officer most certainly can shoot a fleeing subject if the subject has committed a felony and they believe the subject could present a danger to the public. As a civilian, you can't do that. You can only use lethal force if you reasonably believe there is an imminent lethal threat. 



I'm arguing that the cops shouldn't have this, and many other authorities. This specific authority has nothing to do with the scenario in question either, as they didn't kill him because he was a felon possibly posing a risk to others. The officer claimed personal safety.

We are going to disagree here. That's all there is to it.


HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Member since Feb 2017
4943 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

his is what you should do.


But do you think this is how a free person, having committed no crime nor exhibited any hostile intent should be forced to act?


Of course that is how a reasonable person should act when they come in contact with police. Why would you believe otherwise?




HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Member since Feb 2017
4943 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

The officer claimed personal safety.



and the district attorney agreed

/case closed.


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Fox Mulder
Tulane Fan
everywhere
Member since Dec 2010
55108 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

It's not a civilians responsibility to know how to handle police officers.
yeah but empathizing with the position they are in (and vice versa) would dramatically improve things.

why not just teach kids this shit?

you seem more hung up on the principle of the matter than the not having people needlessly die.

does running from the cops or resisting the cops increase the chances of you dying? yes. So what's wrong with telling people why the frick that is whether lawful or not, they're humans and these are the thoughts racing through their minds and the choice as they see it in their mind and that this choice is made in a split second.

maybe it would just all around improve interactions. why not?





ChineseBandit58
LSU Fan
west of the pines
Member since Aug 2005
21811 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

If a dude runs who isn't committing a felony, let them go.


Depends on the situation of course.

But in the majority of cases, if a guy runs - especially for some trivial stop - then there must be a reason he doesn't want to be ID'd. He is probably a felon on the run to begin with.

If a totally innocent person decides to run from the police - especially if they have to get physical with the cops to escape their initial encounter - then that is just bad luck that comes from extremely poor decision making. A guy should be able to walk out on a thin ridge in Zion National Park without having a rock crumple beneath his feet and fall to his death = but it was a poor decision on his part to put himself in that situation. We should not bar access to scenic areas just because of the actions of a stupid person.

SO - if a person runs from the cops with any degree of hostility or physicality associated with the 'escape' then I want the police to shoot him. I got no sympathy for someone that irresponsible and stupid.


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the808bass
Louisville Fan
The Lou
Member since Oct 2012
49749 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

I've always been of the belief that if you run from the cops, you should be shot.


Thank God you’re not in charge.


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Fox Mulder
Tulane Fan
everywhere
Member since Dec 2010
55108 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

then there must be a reason he doesn't want to be ID'd


yeah. I can't believe that needs to be said.


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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
133732 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

I just don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy towards cops


I think it's misunderstood.

I like cops for the most part but think they've been dealt an impossible hand by the CJ system. Too many are put in danger by the nature of our laws and how we deal with law breakers. Proactive policing (drugs) has caused more harm than good to your freedom.

It would be a benefit to both law enforcement and citizen to end the militant proactive policing in which they're given a task of finding something wrong in almost every situation. It's put a great distrust (earned) on law enforcement by the general population.


MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
14763 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

Of course this is what you should do. And what is this about being "forced to act?" There are inconveniences in life every day that I have to adjust to - some jerk on the freeway makes me miss my turn and I have to go 3 miles to get another exit is way more 'forcing me to act' in a way I don't want to.




How can you draw an equivalence between a random act of poor driving (that could be totally accidental) and a systematic use of force against people what have no committed a crime or exhibited any threatening behavior?

quote:

And what else would you 'want to do' while the cop approaches you after you were stopped? If you had done nothing wrong, wouldn't you want to convince the cop you presented him no danger? Wouldn't you be aware that he knows nothing at all about you? How much of an 'inconvenience' can it be to present a complete benign situation to him?


If there is no clear evidence that I am a danger, then why do I need to explain that to the cop? Why do I need to tell ANYONE that I am carrying a pistol? Why must I stop, freeze, hold my hands on up, spin circles, or dance a jig because a cop might feel uncomfortable with me "moving around too much"? Why should I be treated as a threat as a matter of course? Is this how you want to live in America?

quote:

I just don't understand the knee-jerk antipathy towards cops - especially from someone like you who seems so reasonable in almost every other situation I observe on this forum.


This is not knee-jerk. My antipathy towards the law enforcement system and community is a direct result of their continued violation of people's right and enforcement of unjust and unjustifiable laws. Am I supposed to shake their hand and thank them for violating my rights while treating me as though I pose some kind of risk to their safety?




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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
14763 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

yeah but empathizing with the position they are in (and vice versa) would dramatically improve things.



I disagree, it will make it worse. then cops will feel entitled and supported in treating everyone they talk to as a threat and a criminal. Civilians should do EXACTLY what the cop says at all times, because he/she can and will use any tool necessary to show you who has the power. Not because they have empathy.


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Fox Mulder
Tulane Fan
everywhere
Member since Dec 2010
55108 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

Proactive policing (drugs) has caused more harm than good
for sure.

but sometime I find myself irritated that the cops escalated a stupid arse stop into something that ended with someone getting shot or killed like that fat guy in new York selling untaxed smokes

but other times I get upset with the guy who runs from a night or 2 in lockup and gets himself killed

no one needed to die, but he put himself in this position. warrant, biking fricked up without a light, verbally threatening then pushing and running





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MrCarton
UNO Fan
Paradise Valley, MT
Member since Dec 2009
14763 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

Of course that is how a reasonable person should act when they come in contact with police. Why would you believe otherwise?



Because I don't believe that we should accept a world where cops treat innocent people as a threat or a criminal without any evidence. I don't think cops should have the authority to make random people dance a jig so they can feel a little bit safer talking to them. I don't think cops are "better" than me, nor do I think they have
"extra" rights.


HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Member since Feb 2017
4943 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

they're given a task of finding something wrong in almost every situation.


^ This is ignorance spouted off by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Police ARE trained to expect the worst in every situation. You know why? Because it actually SAVES lives . This is why, for example, a cop SHOULD put anyone in handcuffs that they are talking to in relation to a potential crime, regardless of any other factor. THe handcuffs do NOT mean the person is guilty, they mean "this is for your safety and mine" and people have been told that over and over and over again but are stupid and insist on fighting with cops who are merely doing their jobs as they are trained to do.

And here is why the handcuffs are for YOUR safety as well as MINE. I HAVE had people who did absolutely nothing wrong run from me when I detain them for whatever reason. It happens, people panic and do something stupid. If you are handcuffed and sitting on the ground as good policy dictates, it's much harder for you to do something stupid, which keeps me safer and keeps you safer.

So it isn't that cops are trained to "find something bad in every situation" its that they are trained to "expect something bad in every situation" which is just good training.


RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
133732 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

they're given a task of finding something wrong in almost every situation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



^ This is ignorance spouted off by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.


Ok

quote:

Police ARE trained to expect the worst in every situation.


Thanks for contradicting yourself....

quote:

I HAVE had people who did absolutely nothing wrong run from me when I detain them for whatever reason.


Awesome. People who do nothing wrong get detained. And I'll bet your proud of yourself.
This post was edited on 10/6 at 11:33 am


HeyHeyHogsAllTheWay
Member since Feb 2017
4943 posts

re: Cops shoot an "unarmed" black man
quote:

Because I don't believe that we should accept a world where cops treat innocent people as a threat or a criminal without any evidence. I don't think cops should have the authority to make random people dance a jig so they can feel a little bit safer talking to them. I don't think cops are "better" than me, nor do I think they have
"extra" rights.


See my post right below this one


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