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re: Larry Holder's Mock Draft 4.0
Posted on 4/16/15 at 11:16 pm to htran90
Posted on 4/16/15 at 11:16 pm to htran90
I'm not going to argue something I never said. When did I say we couldn't use uprgrades? I think OG is definitely something that needs to be addressed in the draft.
My whole first statement was to the people who say "we need Collins at 13 because back when we were good we had good OGs". While that's true it's completely ignoring the fact that we also had a good defense too. That's something we don't have now. Drafting an OG is not going to cure everything like I feel some people have this inkling it will. I believe we have more holes on defense and our early picks should be spent accordingly. We can get solid OGs at 44 or later.
My whole first statement was to the people who say "we need Collins at 13 because back when we were good we had good OGs". While that's true it's completely ignoring the fact that we also had a good defense too. That's something we don't have now. Drafting an OG is not going to cure everything like I feel some people have this inkling it will. I believe we have more holes on defense and our early picks should be spent accordingly. We can get solid OGs at 44 or later.
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Posted on 4/17/15 at 12:10 am to PurpleDrank18
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The only "hole" for next year would he Lelito and you could argue he could be serviceable at RG.
We heard the serviceable line when it came to Olin Kreutz, DLP, Charles Brown, Ben Grubbs & Jonathan Goodwin his second go around & what did that get us? An inconsistent line is what it got us. Zach Strief & Jermon Bushrod is what should be considered serviceable. Players who are not great but solid & consistent. Nothing against Lelito but he is nothing more than solid depth who can fill in occasionally due to injuries.
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Don't forget the Rolando McClain could have very well won comeback player of the year and played like many people thought he would when he was drafted.
The only reason McClain was traded for was out of desperation because of the loss of Sean Lee. McClain was on the scrap pile after being a complete head case with the Raiders & walking away from a tryout with the Ravens.
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According to NFL transactions, the Cowboys reinstated McClain from the reserve/retired list. His agent, Pat Dye, told multiple reporters that the former Butkus Award winner plans on playing this season.
The Ravens held McClain’s rights for just over a year, but he never played in any games for Baltimore. He retired before the 2013 season following an arrest in his hometown of Decatur, Ala., just 10 days after singing with the Ravens. He attempted a brief comeback in April, but McClain failed his conditioning test and again chose to walk away from the game.
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You're kind of proving my point tho. Dallas had a "bad" defense the year before, got some help in the offseason(especially coordinator) and it was helped by a powerhouse, ball-controlling offense and STILL didn't do anything in the playoffs
Rod Marinelli was already with the Cowboys as defensive line coach. He already had a feel what the Cowboys had talent wise defensively & a relationship with them as well.
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The Dallas Cowboys announced Rod Marinelli as the club’s defensive line coach on January 18, 2013.
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You just won't win anything of merit with ONLY a great offense. It might win you a game or two in the regular season, but come time when it matters, you need at least solid units on both sides to have any success.
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In 2011, the Saints brought in Darren Sproles. They drafted Mark Ingram. They unleashed Jimmy Graham on unsuspecting defenses. Drew Brees threw the ball 657 times, set new standards for NFL offenses, and left the league trembling in the wake of his warpath.
For the second time in three seasons, New Orleans reeled off 13 regular-season victories and further established themselves as the toast of the NFC. By season's end, they were the league's most feared team; they secured the NFC's second seed and were an Alex Smith anomaly away from a shot at the conference championship.
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General off-season strategy/overview: The Saints are imbalanced. They're the league's most dangerous and versatile offense, passing the ball at historic clips and rushing the ball better than they have in two and a half decades. But they suffered inversely on defense, failing to impede opposing passers and allowing 5.0 yards per rush against them. It'd be a crippling asymmetry for most teams, but you know what? New Orleans finished 13-3. Their offense has gone places previously uncharted. They're playing Arena Football against the rest of the league, and it's working.
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The 2011 Saints say hello. If not for Gregg Williams going full retard with his play calling on the 49ers final offensive drive, the team would have hosted the Giants that next week in the NFC Championship game. The same Giants team the Saints destroyed just a few weeks before at home. The same Giants who ended up beating the Patriots in the Super Bowl a few weeks later.
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It was one of the few times Brees came up short Monday night as the New Orleans Saints made everything look easy in a 49-24 victory over the slumping New York Giants, who have lost three straight.
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The whole point of my original argument was that some people think drafting an OG at 13 is going to magically turn us into SB contenders, like our defense isn't bad, citing the deep-playoff-run seasons when we had a strong offensive line.
You make it seem like taking Collins at #13 to play guard will doom the team & the entire 2015 draft will go down the drain. That's far from being the case. The team can still find immediate impact defensive players with their other picks in rounds 1-3. I understand you have an infatuation with Bud Dupree but all will not be lost if don't Dupree or any defensive player at pick ##13 for that matter.
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When was the last time a team won a SB with a below average defense, no matter how potent their offense was?
The 2009 New Orleans Saints
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In 2009, the Saints had the 20th-ranked defense, and won the Super Bowl (but the offense was No. 1)
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Posted on 4/17/15 at 12:12 am to PurpleDrank18
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While that's true it's completely ignoring the fact that we also had a good defense too. That's something we don't have now.
We don't have a good defense now & we didn't have one back then. See my post above. The biggest difference now is that our offense is less explosive & less efficient.
Posted on 4/17/15 at 12:40 am to BigBrod81
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The only reason McClain was traded for was out of desperation because of the loss of Sean Lee. McClain was on the scrap pile after being a complete head case with the Raiders & walking away from a tryout with the Ravens.
What the hell does this have to do with anything? They got McClain, he played well and contributed to their defense. That's all I said - he was a factor in their improved defense.
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Rod Marinelli was already with the Cowboys as defensive line coach. He already had a feel what the Cowboys had talent wise defensively & a relationship with them as well.
Again, going off on a strawman and taking things out of context. Why does it matter if he was with the team before? If anything that would help the defense even more. Did they get a new D Coordinator? Yes. Did he have a different scheme than Kiffin's outdated Cover 2? Hell yes.
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For the second time in three seasons, New Orleans reeled off 13 regular-season victories and further established themselves as the toast of the NFC. By season's end, they were the league's most feared team; they secured the NFC's second seed and were an Alex Smith anomaly away from a shot at the conference championship.
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The Saints are imbalanced. They're the league's most dangerous and versatile offense, passing the ball at historic clips and rushing the ball better than they have in two and a half decades. But they suffered inversely on defense, failing to impede opposing passers and allowing 5.0 yards per rush against them. It'd be a crippling asymmetry for most teams, but you know what? New Orleans finished 13-3. Their offense has gone places previously uncharted. They're playing Arena Football against the rest of the league, and it's working.
Soooo we lost in the divisional round, correct? Moral victories, much. We had a potent offense, which did wonders in the regular season, but come playoff time it was the defense that ended up being our downfall. Bad call or not. Plus that was a historically great offense. I highly doubt we'd be able to replicate that now.
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You make it seem like taking Collins at #13 to play guard will doom the team & the entire 2015 draft will go down the drain. That's far from being the case. The team can still find immediate impact defensive players with their other picks in rounds 1-3. I understand you have an infatuation with Bud Dupree but all will not be lost if don't Dupree or any defensive player at pick ##13 for that matter.
When the frick did I say ANYTHING about Dupree? I'd have no problem if we took Collins; I'd be very happy with that. I just think think using the reasoning some people use is off base. Like adding defense won't help either.
And for the record, I'm not infatuated with Dupree, as Meateye would have you believe. I just feel like I have to always defend him against baseless claims (combine warrior, etc.) so people don't get the wrong idea about what kind of prospect he is by fallacies spread on this board. I'd do it for any other player I had extensively researched.
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The 2009 New Orleans Saints
Again, they were also in the top half of the league in QB pressure and were second in the league in turnovers that year. We had a good defense, just of the bend don't break variety. Also a defense that gave our offense the 6th highest starting field position in the league that year.
Posted on 4/17/15 at 1:26 am to PurpleDrank18
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What the hell does this have to do with anything? They got McClain, he played well and contributed to their defense.
Because you made it seem like the Cowboys were getting someone they knew for a fact would play well for them. Nothing was guaranteed with McClain & it was huge roll of the dice for them.
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Again, going off on a strawman and taking things out of context.
How is that so? You made it seem like the Cowboys brought in an entirely new coach that had no insight to the personnel already on their roster. That wasn't the case at all.
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Soooo we lost in the divisional round, correct? Moral victories, much. We had a potent offense, which did wonders in the regular season, but come playoff time it was the defense that ended up being our downfall. Bad call or not.
If what happened at the end of the 49ers game hadn't happened before, I would agree with you but Williams stupidity almost cost the team road victories at Atlanta & at Tennessee in the same season. I'm sure there must be footage on YouTube of these games so go look them up & you will see what I'm talking about.
At Atlanta, Williams used the same blitz two plays in row when the Falcons got the ball at the end of the game with a chance to win. The blitz Williams called left Harry Douglas uncovered in the slot & allowed him to get 2 huge chunk receptions to get into Saints territory. Williams called the same blitz a third time only to have Vilma say enough was enough & he audibled out of the call at the last second. If not for a goal line stand, the Saints lose that game.
Williams used similar blitzes against Jake Locker who had come in for an injured Matt Hasselbeck. Once again the defense was burned being caught in blitzes & the Titans had an opportunity to win deep Saints territory before Williams wised up & used zone to confuse Locker. So it wasn't just a bad play call against the 49ers. Williams had bad habit of playing with fire with the game on the line & it was only a matter of time before it burned him. Unfortunately, it ended up happening in big playoff game. Even before the blitz where Vernon Davis caught the long pass, Williams had blitzed the play before. There was a receiver who had gotten behind the secondary & if Alex Smith makes a better throw, it's a big play possibly a touchdown. It should have been a warning to Williams right there but he allowed his ego to get the best of him.
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Again, they were also in the top half of the league in QB pressure and were second in the league in turnovers that year. We had a good defense, just of the bend don't break variety. Also a defense that gave our offense the 6th highest starting field position in the league that year.
One, the team was in the top half of the league for QB pressures because Gregg Williams was infatuated with blitzing. The negative with that is when you bring extra pressure, you leave another area of the field vulnerable.
Secondly, the defense's high turnover rate had a direct effect from the pressure the offense put on opposing offenses to have to score to keep. Opposing offenses took more risk because every possession became precious for them & scoring points was a must. How can you not see the connection?
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We had a good defense
20th-ranked defense
This post was edited on 4/17/15 at 1:31 am
Posted on 4/17/15 at 1:46 am to BigBrod81
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Because you made it seem like the Cowboys were getting someone they knew for a fact would play well for them. Nothing was guaranteed with McClain & it was huge roll of the dice for them
Again, why does this matter at all. It's not at all pertinent to what my point is. All I said was he contributed to the defense's improvement. How or why they got him was irrelevant.
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How is that so? You made it seem like the Cowboys brought in an entirely new coach that had no insight to the personnel already on their roster. That wasn't the case at all.
All I said was they got a new D Coordinator, which they did. It actually helps my point that he was with the team before. You're trying to argue that it was Dallas' offense that helped their D be good, so therefore you (hypothetically) need every excuse for Dallas' D to be poor. Marinelli being there before, and implementing a scheme that fit their personnel makes their defense better, independent of the offenses production.
Posted on 4/17/15 at 2:02 am to PurpleDrank18
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You're trying to argue that it was Dallas' offense that helped their D be good, so therefore you (hypothetically) need every excuse for Dallas' D to be poor.
I don't need excuses. The truth is that the talent on the Cowboys defense was & still is average. Marinelli was able to be more aggressive as a defensive play caller because his defense spent fewer snaps on the field & two, he knew the offense could bail him out since they were so efficient scoring points per possession. Elite talent doesn't necessarily always equate to success. Sure it helps but scheme has a ton to do with it & Marinelli was able to mold his scheme around the Cowboys offensive strengths.
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This defense has not been spectacular in creating sacks or touchdown returns or any other showy defensive numbers. It has complemented Dallas' extravagant running game (back DeMarco Murray's league-leading, record-breaking start) and quarterback Tony Romo's direction of an offense that frequently keeps the ball longer than opponents. The Dallas defense, thus, is often rested and asked to do more in fewer situations just like it has been asked to do more without marquee names.
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This post was edited on 4/17/15 at 4:08 am
Posted on 4/17/15 at 11:12 am to BigBrod81
Only dropped into this private conversation between you and PurpleDrank18 to say I'm impressed with the number of posts and the complexities of the responses on both parts.
Carry on.
Carry on.
Posted on 4/17/15 at 3:29 pm to adono
ditto adono!
Posted on 4/18/15 at 6:44 am to blueslover
The difference in getting a G at 13 or with one of the 2nd or 3rd round picks will be minimal to improve our offense. We will still be at the top of the league in scoring. Getting our defense improved by using the first 3 picks on two LBs and either a CB or DT will do wonders for the defense. We would still have two thirds for a decent WR and G.
Posted on 4/18/15 at 8:13 am to TIGERSby10
Yards aren't the best indicator, we couldn't score on a lot of drives and turned the ball over a lot due to pressure. The drop off between scherff/Collins may not be much, but in recent years the amount of edge guys that have come out this early and picked high have flaked and been mediocre.
Posted on 4/18/15 at 8:28 am to htran90
An average edge rusher would still help this defense. Plus we need another ILB.
Posted on 4/18/15 at 8:25 pm to TIGERSby10
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The difference in getting a G at 13 or with one of the 2nd or 3rd round picks will be minimal to improve our offense.
That's cool that you think that way but Payton seems to place a higher value at guard & rightfully so.
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The way Sean Payton sees it, the little area between the two guards and the few yards of space behind Drew Brees is the area of the field most worth fighting over on any given offensive snap.
The New Orleans Saints coach cherishes that area of the field. It has to be protected, guarded and respected at all costs. Lose that patch of turf, lose the play, lose the game.
“When we go into a game, this spot two yards behind the center is like the most important piece of property in football,” Payton said last week at the NFL’s annual meeting. “If we can occupy that spot, then we’re going to win the game.”
It’s long been theorized that with the way he plays the position and due to his height, Brees needs interior protection more than his counterparts around the league. He needs to be able to see down the field and his ability to climb the pocket is negated when there are men crashing this precious piece of property.
In some ways this makes the guards and centers more valuable to New Orleans than tackles, which is the opposite of how many teams assemble their offensive lines. General Manager Mickey Loomis suggested that the line is not built from the inside out early last season, that it just happened that way, but it’s clear the team places a premium on shielding Brees from interior pressure.
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This was a clear area of need. After he team allowed pressure on 25.1 percent of Brees’ dropbacks in 2011, that figure has steadily increased. Brees faced pressure on 28.6 percent of his snaps in 2012, 29.8 percent in 2013, and a hefty 32.9 last season, according to Pro Football Focus.
Overall, Brees faced pressure on 231 snaps last season. Of those, 109 were allowed by his guards and centers, or 47.1 percent. That’s far too many invaders in what Payton considers the most important area of the field.
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We will still be at the top of the league in scoring.
A better indication of offensive efficiency & explosiveness is points per drive. The Saints finished last season 21st in points per drive.
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