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re: 1989-1990 LSU Basketball: What do you remember the problem being?
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:06 am to Tiger Ugly
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:06 am to Tiger Ugly
quote:
There were egos, and they were pretty big. Dale couldn't keep them in check.
That was the biggest factor. You're down 1 with 10 seconds left against GA Tech in the NCAA Tournament and you have Chris Jackson, Shaq, and Stanley Roberts. So who takes the final shot? You guessed it--Maurice Williamson refused to give them the ball.
Incredible talent, bad coaching, bad fundamentals, missed free throws, choking big leads. It's no doubt Johnny Jones learned from the master.
This post was edited on 4/14/15 at 8:08 am
3
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:10 am to Nuts4LSU
NCAA Gestapo Nazis...and Dale was a great recruiter but lacked coaching skills as others have said, in the 1986 Final Four, Bobby Knight bullied the refs against us, and instead of trying to counter that, Dale let it happen.
Dale's a great man, a great recruiter, and a great motivator who could get his teams to play with the best teams in the nation. He lacked the ability to sustain the level of normalcy needed to guide a team through a full season for the most part.
That being said, a broken finger in 1981 stopped him from winning a national championship in my opinion.
Dale's a great man, a great recruiter, and a great motivator who could get his teams to play with the best teams in the nation. He lacked the ability to sustain the level of normalcy needed to guide a team through a full season for the most part.
That being said, a broken finger in 1981 stopped him from winning a national championship in my opinion.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:18 am to AlaTiger
That team gets too much grief. I understand completely about the 1992 Fab Five and what Kentucky has done of late. Still, CJ was a soph (and not really the world's best "team player"),Shaquille was a freshman and Roberts was a Prop 48 first yr player who had been virtually dormant for a year.
With that said it was inexcusable for that squad not to have won the SEC Title. That was Georgia and Alec Kessler's big year. Georgia won late in Baton Rouge and came from 17 down at halftime in Athens to beat LSU.Either one of those resulting in an LSU win would have given LSU a share.
If that wasn't enough, the next game after Georgia was an ESPN game in Gainesville. Remember,this was a long time before virtually every game was televised. This was put together back in the summer to feature Florida's Livingston Chatman and Dewayne Schintzius. Florida had just won its first SEC title the prior year.But in October of 1989 Florida coach Norm Sloan was fired over NCAA allegations. Recently fired former Tennessee coach Don DeVoe was chosen as 'interim coach.'A "player's coach" to a Bob Knight protege'.Chatman and Schintzius quit in early January for failing to comply with some of DeVoe's requests.
Okay,the point--? Well, around mid-January Florida was fielding a virtual intramural team. LSU started out ahead 14-4 and Dick Vitale was talking about an "M&M - er" and how this was going to be bad. Florida caught up and led at halftime. They actually increased their lead to 63-39 at one point before a run made the final margin more 'acceptable.'
In my opinion, including 1/9/12, this was the most embarrassing performance in LSU history. A team that had been ranked as high as #2 being beaten soundly by a team that was just trying to finish the season.
Still, the "NC or bust" predictions were crazy. Remember the Georgia Tech team that eliminated us went on to the Final Four. Of course that regional was played in the Superdome, where had LSU beaten Tech,they very well would have gone to the FF.
With that said it was inexcusable for that squad not to have won the SEC Title. That was Georgia and Alec Kessler's big year. Georgia won late in Baton Rouge and came from 17 down at halftime in Athens to beat LSU.Either one of those resulting in an LSU win would have given LSU a share.
If that wasn't enough, the next game after Georgia was an ESPN game in Gainesville. Remember,this was a long time before virtually every game was televised. This was put together back in the summer to feature Florida's Livingston Chatman and Dewayne Schintzius. Florida had just won its first SEC title the prior year.But in October of 1989 Florida coach Norm Sloan was fired over NCAA allegations. Recently fired former Tennessee coach Don DeVoe was chosen as 'interim coach.'A "player's coach" to a Bob Knight protege'.Chatman and Schintzius quit in early January for failing to comply with some of DeVoe's requests.
Okay,the point--? Well, around mid-January Florida was fielding a virtual intramural team. LSU started out ahead 14-4 and Dick Vitale was talking about an "M&M - er" and how this was going to be bad. Florida caught up and led at halftime. They actually increased their lead to 63-39 at one point before a run made the final margin more 'acceptable.'
In my opinion, including 1/9/12, this was the most embarrassing performance in LSU history. A team that had been ranked as high as #2 being beaten soundly by a team that was just trying to finish the season.
Still, the "NC or bust" predictions were crazy. Remember the Georgia Tech team that eliminated us went on to the Final Four. Of course that regional was played in the Superdome, where had LSU beaten Tech,they very well would have gone to the FF.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:26 am to GumboPot
I remember many huddle cams where he changed defenses, and drew up offensive sets. I've seen a few of those when LSU was playing a school with supposedly better "X's and O's" coaches, who did nothing but grunt motivational words to their teams in the huddle.
It's the same LSU fan thought pattern in every sport...
We have the best players in the country,by far. We should win by a lot. We certainly should never lose. If we don't win the national championship with these players, the coach sucks.
That first statement is a farce, and every memory of those teams built on that premise is flawed.
Dale beat a lot of good coaches that had equal, or greater talent. A lot of them.
It's the same LSU fan thought pattern in every sport...
We have the best players in the country,by far. We should win by a lot. We certainly should never lose. If we don't win the national championship with these players, the coach sucks.
That first statement is a farce, and every memory of those teams built on that premise is flawed.
Dale beat a lot of good coaches that had equal, or greater talent. A lot of them.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:29 am to Nuts4LSU
I remember the starters being Jackson (1), Devall (0), Sims (2 or 3), Shaq (0) and Roberts (0). They were inexperienced, lacked leadership and played poor perimeter D. GA Tech's bigs were outclassed and helpless against Shaq and Roberts at the beginning of the game. GA Tech's guards killed us.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:30 am to Manswers
That game was called in a way that hindered our advantage down low.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:35 am to bgtiger
quote:
It's the same LSU fan thought pattern in every sport...
We have the best players in the country,by far. We should win by a lot. We certainly should never lose. If we don't win the national championship with these players, the coach sucks.
That first statement is a farce, and every memory of those teams built on that premise is flawed.
Dale beat a lot of good coaches that had equal, or greater talent. A lot of them.
LSU 86 (I believe). At Georgetown, down 1. Time out. Instead of drawing up a play, all Dale did in the huddle was say "Jose, don't shoot the ball. Jose, don't shoot the ball. Jose, don't shoot the ball." The camera was in the huddle. Everyone saw it.
They come out of the time out. Jose Vargas gets the ball. He shoots. He misses. LSU loses.
You think the so-called negatigers have a complex about our coaches' coaching abilities, but there is a pattern of incompetence if you'd just open your freaking eyes.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:42 am to thekid
quote:
Continually dumped it inside to Shaquille and if he didn't dunk, it didn't go in...we would get behind and then ask CJ to bring us back...
Given he shot 57% from the field that year (unbelievably his lowest at LSU), he must have dunked it an awful lot.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 8:58 am to GumboPot
quote:
Do you remember the game versus Mississippi State where Dale was mic'd up? Dale didn't draw up one game time situation play. Every TO was a motivational speech. The "group think" in this thread is pretty accurate.
This is EXACTLY correct. Dale did the same thing against Florida. We're down by 1, with the ball, 20 seconds left. Dale was mic'd up (he loved that) and he calls a TO and all he does in the huddle is say, "let's go win the game" for the entire time out. Zero play calling or strategy. Of course, we lost.
Dale did great things for LSU and we're all thankful. But I watched many, many years of Dale's team, and he was NOT a good game day coach.
That's not "groupthink," it's fact.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:00 am to lsutigers1992
quote:
LSU 86 (I believe). At Georgetown, down 1. Time out. Instead of drawing up a play, all Dale did in the huddle was say "Jose, don't shoot the ball. Jose, don't shoot the ball. Jose, don't shoot the ball." The camera was in the huddle. Everyone saw it. They come out of the time out. Jose Vargas gets the ball. He shoots. He misses. LSU loses. You think the so-called negatigers have a complex about our coaches' coaching abilities, but there is a pattern of incompetence if you'd just open your freaking eyes.
Maybe that's because Dale didn't DRAW UP A PLAY designed for another player to shoot, and Jose was left as the only option with the clock running down.
This post was edited on 4/14/15 at 9:02 am
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:02 am to lsutigers1992
Wtf kind of anecdote is that? He told Jose not to shoot the ball. Jose did, and missed. Sounds like Dale knew what he was talking about. Lol
A thirty second timeout is what proved to you that Dale was incompetent? Where and when did you coach? I'm sure you are qualified to recognize incompetence in the profession, especially when you call a man who had high levels of success such things.
You are a typical "Tigah" fan, bitter and small minded.
A thirty second timeout is what proved to you that Dale was incompetent? Where and when did you coach? I'm sure you are qualified to recognize incompetence in the profession, especially when you call a man who had high levels of success such things.
You are a typical "Tigah" fan, bitter and small minded.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:10 am to bgtiger
quote:
A thirty second timeout is what proved to you that Dale was incompetent? Where and when did you coach? I'm sure you are qualified to recognize incompetence in the profession, especially when you call a man who had high levels of success such things.
You are a typical "Tigah" fan, bitter and small minded.
He provided an example. I think the way it usually works is the burden is now on you to refute the evidence. Since everyone knows you don't have to be a coach to have a critical eye for coaching, you're going to have to make a real counterargument. That isn't to say I don't think there is one, but what you are doing isn't moving the argument forward.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:17 am to atltiger6487
You know that most of the time, coaches aren't "drawing up" plays in huddles right? It's kind of a rarity.
The plays are drawn up and practiced over and over and over again in the preseason and during practice. It's no indictment on Dale that he didn't whip out the grease board for every end of game TO.
I really laugh at this subject because I recently watched a couple of older LSU bball games. I had this narrative in mind and looked for certain things like that.
One was against Nolan Richardson and one was against Pitino. Each end of game time out huddle was filmed.... Dale drew up sets telling each guy where they needed to be while the other coaches did nothing. One wiped his brow with his towel the entire time, and the other yelled at a kid the whole time ,a kid who he didn't even put back into the game.
The plays are drawn up and practiced over and over and over again in the preseason and during practice. It's no indictment on Dale that he didn't whip out the grease board for every end of game TO.
I really laugh at this subject because I recently watched a couple of older LSU bball games. I had this narrative in mind and looked for certain things like that.
One was against Nolan Richardson and one was against Pitino. Each end of game time out huddle was filmed.... Dale drew up sets telling each guy where they needed to be while the other coaches did nothing. One wiped his brow with his towel the entire time, and the other yelled at a kid the whole time ,a kid who he didn't even put back into the game.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:19 am to Big EZ Tiger
quote:
Also, that Georgia Tech team was their best ever at the time and they had 3 NBA 1st rounders and a 2nd rounder that were drafted from that team.
A million times this. Dennis Scott was the ACC Player of the Year. That team was loaded. LSU got hosed a bit on its seed. GT was 5th in the RPI and somehow got a 4-seed. They got absolutely hosed on their seeding, and took it out on LSU.
LINK
A great team was going to lose that game. Shockingly, it was the one with two freshmen and a sophomore as its three best players. I hate how people point to this game as being some massive choke: GT was a better team. They were f'n awesome, and didn't lose until the UNLV monster took them out in the Final Four.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:27 am to bgtiger
quote:
You know that most of the time, coaches aren't "drawing up" plays in huddles right? It's kind of a rarity.
wow, are you really using that argument??? Whether or not a coach actually uses a marker on a board???
Of course that isn't the point - the point is that Dale didn't even TELL his team what play to run or what offensive set to use. He just pumped them up and said "go win."
That ain't good in-game coaching, by anyone's measure.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:28 am to therick711
quote:
He provided an example. I think the way it usually works is the burden is now on you to refute the evidence. Since everyone knows you don't have to be a coach to have a critical eye for coaching, you're going to have to make a real counterargument. That isn't to say I don't think there is one, but what you are doing isn't moving the argument forward.
i'll stand with bg tiger.
first off, just bc a coach isn't known as a strategist doesn't mean he doesn't know how to coach. (a common misconception here).
i mean, i've coached basketball at a youth level and we had numbered sets and this was kids not even in high school yet. so after i say we're in a 25 or whatever, i'm telling my guys other obvious stuff (don't foul, get the ball to whoever etc) i know a bunch of coaches use clip board draw ups but many coaches just go with the sets they've practiced in, you know, practice.
a coach isn't usually drawing up a play on the clippy, he's matching up his personnel at the time with 1-5 so everyone knows their role (i.e. you have two SG's on the floor so one has to take the role of the 3).
edit: just saw bg posted something similar above. oh well.
This post was edited on 4/14/15 at 9:41 am
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:34 am to TDTGodfather
There are basically two Dale Browns. You have the "master motivator," "freak defense" Dale Brown who could get some of his least talented teams to overachieve. But then you have the "just get out of their way" Dale Brown who had no idea to manage those teams from 88-92. I think with the right personnel he could be a good coach, but he wound up coaching a lot of people who weren't exactly interested in being team players at the end of his run.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:36 am to atltiger6487
quote:
Of course that isn't the point - the point is that Dale didn't even TELL his team what play to run or what offensive set to use. He just pumped them up and said "go win."
I'm only countering the argument started by other posters.
I guess you believe that Dale just sent them back out onto the court with no idea of what to run? Are you serious? Have you ever basketballed bro?
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:40 am to TigerNlc
Re Dale's not being able to keep Robert's eligible, in reading Shaq's book, Shaq said Dale did everything he could to do to keep Roberts eligible. Even spending one nite in his room, waiting up for Roberts, who eventually came in around 7 a.m Shaq said many times Roberts would just be coming in when he was leaving for class. Roberts just refused to go to class & was lazy as hell in practice. As for no x's & o's, one former player said that they would spend a whole practice on an inbounds play, then, at a crucial part of the game, time out before having to inbound the ball, Dale would gather all the players in a circle & give them a motivational prep talk instead of describing the play. What you heard during a time out in a game in the show last nite was typical Dale Brown.
Posted on 4/14/15 at 9:45 am to lsutigers1992
Chris Jackson was on the bench. He fouled out with 2 1/2 minutes to go after having a HORRIBLE game and only scoring 15 points on 5 of 15 shooting. He was hurt in his chest or something.
How in the world does your All-American 6-0 guard foul out of an NCAA tournament game with 2 1/2 minutes to go? Not sure that I have ever seen that.
And, LSU was down by 3 so they had to shoot a 3 to tie.
How in the world does your All-American 6-0 guard foul out of an NCAA tournament game with 2 1/2 minutes to go? Not sure that I have ever seen that.
And, LSU was down by 3 so they had to shoot a 3 to tie.
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