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Started By
Message
re: Benson needs to sell to the Mannings
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:22 pm to GrantTheFan
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:22 pm to GrantTheFan
quote:
What part of my admittedly very rough draft scenario, specifically, do you find so implausible,
The Mannings having 100 mil on hand. The Mannings acquiring another 512 mil in loans. The Mannings finding another 500 mil in additional investors. Active players being involved in the ownership of a franchise. That a new owner introducing PSLs wouldn't destroy ticket sales.
This post was edited on 1/27/15 at 11:23 pm
2
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:28 pm to GrantTheFan
quote:
You don't think so. Fair enough.
Cute, you already showed your arse with "I'm sorry you're not intellectually capable of understanding that."
quote:
As to the PSL, if you and I agreed on a price for you to sell me the rights to your tickets, what exactly would you be selling me?
Transferring the ticket rights to the buyer.
Saints Transfer Form
The exact same way you could sell a PSL according to the Tenn Titans website:
quote:
. For example, he can transfer the rights to the seat to a neighbor or relative rather than having the seat go to a random person on the team's waiting list.
Seriously, is it really that hard to understand for someone with your superior intellectual capability? It happens every offseason on this board
This post was edited on 1/27/15 at 11:31 pm
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:31 pm to saintsfan22
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:49 pm to Kafka
quote:
The Saints would cost close to $2B?
For the Saints franchise?? Not even close to being worth anything that much!!
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:51 pm to frog legs
quote:
They can definitely afford it
do you have any fricking idea the value of an NFL team?
we are talking over a billion dollars.
You think Papa Johns is making Peyton billions?
Posted on 1/27/15 at 11:54 pm to TigerBait1127
Sorry I hurt your feelings, but that comment wasn't directed at our disagreement about the LSU tickets, it was directed at you not understanding how it would be possible to put the deal together. That said, there is no asset in your example, it's simply changing the name on the account - which the Saints can cancel at will, for almost any reason whatsoever. With a PSL, sure, they can cancel your account, but they have to purchase the PSL back from you. At no more than you paid, but purchase it back they must, at least. No such asset in your example, no downside protection. So it really isn't the same at all.
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:06 am to saintsfan22
In this example I assumed it was understood Peyton would no longer be playing, so let me be clear that is the scenario.
3 years ago Forbes pegged him at $115 million (true, net worth, not cash, but it's likely that a great deal of that is pretty liquid) and he's earned $60 million in salary and $30 million in endorsements since (again, according to Forbes). So, could Peyton scratch together $100 million in cash now? I have no idea. But it's certainly not impossibly implausible.
Tom's initial $1 million cash investment to $35 million dollars in loans was a much more difficult balancing act than a $100 million dollar cash to $500 million credit facility for Goldman Sachs to pull off. It's about percentages, not dollar amounts.
The PSL's well, we just disagree. Those things can be structured in countless ways. Hell, they could offer a 5-10 year payment plan, for example. There're a million ways to do a deal
3 years ago Forbes pegged him at $115 million (true, net worth, not cash, but it's likely that a great deal of that is pretty liquid) and he's earned $60 million in salary and $30 million in endorsements since (again, according to Forbes). So, could Peyton scratch together $100 million in cash now? I have no idea. But it's certainly not impossibly implausible.
Tom's initial $1 million cash investment to $35 million dollars in loans was a much more difficult balancing act than a $100 million dollar cash to $500 million credit facility for Goldman Sachs to pull off. It's about percentages, not dollar amounts.
The PSL's well, we just disagree. Those things can be structured in countless ways. Hell, they could offer a 5-10 year payment plan, for example. There're a million ways to do a deal
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:08 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
That said, there is no asset in your example, it's simply changing the name on the account .
The asset is your ticket account and the rights that come with it
quote:
With a PSL, sure, they can cancel your account, but they have to purchase the PSL back from you. At no more than you paid, but purchase it back they must, at least.
So they're paying back the person's own money...
How is that advantageous? If anything, you're explaining why the Saints rights are more valuable for current holders. You don't have the initial cost associated with a psl
quote:
No such asset in your example, no downside protection. So it really isn't the same at all.
Downside protection meaning they'll pay back what I already paid?
Sounds really advantageous
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:11 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
Tom's initial $1 million cash investment to $35 million dollars in loans was a much more difficult balancing act than a $100 million
You keep bringing this up. The NFL is a completely different beast with a completely different set of rules than when Benson purchased the team
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:24 am to TigerBait1127
You're really struggling to grasp a most basic of concepts, Tiger.
So let's see, I give you 5k for the "rights" to your tickets. At some point in the future, the Saints, at their discretion, revoke those rights. I'm out 5k.
Now, at the same time, let's say I'm an OT Baller and I bought 2 PSL's from the Texans for $5k (or any team with PSL's) and again, for whatever reason, they revoke my rights - they also have to return the $5k I originally paid them.
Is it safe for me to assume the light has now appeared for you? Or do you think I'm still somehow better off under your scenario?
And yes, the business of the NFL has changed considerably since 1985, but the NFL isn't in the business of financing these transactions. And the business of private banking and financing of very large and structured deals hasn't really changed very much at all. It remains a simple risk and reward scenario and the 1985 version of this financing package was considerably riskier than the 2015 version.
So let's see, I give you 5k for the "rights" to your tickets. At some point in the future, the Saints, at their discretion, revoke those rights. I'm out 5k.
Now, at the same time, let's say I'm an OT Baller and I bought 2 PSL's from the Texans for $5k (or any team with PSL's) and again, for whatever reason, they revoke my rights - they also have to return the $5k I originally paid them.
Is it safe for me to assume the light has now appeared for you? Or do you think I'm still somehow better off under your scenario?
And yes, the business of the NFL has changed considerably since 1985, but the NFL isn't in the business of financing these transactions. And the business of private banking and financing of very large and structured deals hasn't really changed very much at all. It remains a simple risk and reward scenario and the 1985 version of this financing package was considerably riskier than the 2015 version.
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:30 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
It remains a simple risk and reward scenario and the 1985 version of this financing package was considerably riskier than the 2015 version.
Peyton would be much riskier since his money making are essentially over once he retires which obviously wasn't the case for Benson had businesses at the time of his purchase.
This post was edited on 1/28/15 at 12:34 am
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:36 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
You're really struggling to grasp a most basic of concepts, Tiger.
No, I fully understand the concept
quote:
So let's see, I give you 5k for the "rights" to your tickets. At some point in the future, the Saints, at their discretion, revoke those rights. I'm out 5k.
Correct. $0 (Cost to purchase rights from Saints) - $5k (Cost to purchase rights in a free market) = -$5k. Congrats on basic math.
quote:
Now, at the same time, let's say I'm an OT Baller and I bought 2 PSL's from the Texans for $5k (or any team with PSL's) and again, for whatever reason, they revoke my rights - they also have to return the $5k I originally paid them.
Correct. Now how about this scenario.
You spent $7k buying the PSL from the season ticket holder, and the PSL is valued at $5k from the team. Your rights were revoked, you'd be out $2k. It really isn't different, except that the PSL inflates the price. It is an additional cost to entry that inflates the actual worth of the tickets.
Pathetic, you can't even admit that you're wrong. You said this:
quote:
No, you don't have anything to sell someone now. You can sell your tickets, but you can't sell your right to buy them to someone else.
Which was absolutely wrong as I've already proven. You have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:
but the NFL isn't in the business of financing these transactions.And the business of private banking and financing of very large and structured deals hasn't really changed very much at all. It remains a simple risk and reward scenario and the 1985 version of this financing package was considerably riskier than the 2015 version.
The owners have to approve the sale of the team...
Now, see if you can see why the NFL owners may have a problem with your proposal. Think hard.
quote:
Is it safe for me to assume the light has now appeared for you? Or do you think I'm still somehow better off under your scenario?
You're really amusing. An idiotic a-hole, but a confident one.
This post was edited on 1/28/15 at 12:45 am
Posted on 1/28/15 at 12:39 am to saintsfan22
Valid point. Very valid. That risk is considerably mitigated by the sheer growth in cash flows now afforded NFL teams, mostly from TV money. The profit margin (according to Forbes) is almost twice that of the debt service. That's a pretty nice ratio. Now, admittedly, I have no idea what that ratio was in 1985.
Posted on 1/28/15 at 1:03 am to TigerBait1127
Dang, bro. Why so angry?
OK, so my wording regarding the "rights" was incorrect - to an extent. You can sell those rights, to the point at which the Saints revoke those rights. But the point, which was that you offer no asset for downside protection, was absolutely correct. If I buy your rights, and lose them, I'm out that money. I'm buying from you, not the Saints. That $5k is gone. If I buy a PSL, and lose the rights, I recoup that money. That $5k is back. What don't you understand here? I didn't pay 7k, I paid $5k. But even in your scenario, I recoup the majority of my original outlay. So as it turns out, you're seemingly the one having difficulty admitting that you still don't understand the most elementary of concepts, which in and of itself is pathetic. You're wrong and too dense to even see it.
And yes, the NFL would likely have a long list of concerns with the proposal. The NFL a would also likely have a long list of reasons to work with a Peyton Manning in structuring a deal that worked for everyone, as opposed to enduring the specter of a year's long and protracted legal battle to determine who, out of an almost 70 year old allegedly failed interior decorator or the allegedly batshit crazy adopted family members of a soon to be gone Tom Benson, gets to control the team.
Look, the OP threw out a troll suggestion about a rather unlikely, and certainly implausible, ownership transfer. I jumped aboard and threw out a rather unlikely, and certainly implausible, scenario in which it could actually be done. Then you jump in firing shots, while being completely and utterly confused about what I was saying. Take a look in the mirror, champ. It won't kill you.
FWIW, I'll take the "amusing and confident idiot a-hole" description as a compliment, while recognizing the sarcasm font in which it was typed.
man, I'm headed to bed.
OK, so my wording regarding the "rights" was incorrect - to an extent. You can sell those rights, to the point at which the Saints revoke those rights. But the point, which was that you offer no asset for downside protection, was absolutely correct. If I buy your rights, and lose them, I'm out that money. I'm buying from you, not the Saints. That $5k is gone. If I buy a PSL, and lose the rights, I recoup that money. That $5k is back. What don't you understand here? I didn't pay 7k, I paid $5k. But even in your scenario, I recoup the majority of my original outlay. So as it turns out, you're seemingly the one having difficulty admitting that you still don't understand the most elementary of concepts, which in and of itself is pathetic. You're wrong and too dense to even see it.
And yes, the NFL would likely have a long list of concerns with the proposal. The NFL a would also likely have a long list of reasons to work with a Peyton Manning in structuring a deal that worked for everyone, as opposed to enduring the specter of a year's long and protracted legal battle to determine who, out of an almost 70 year old allegedly failed interior decorator or the allegedly batshit crazy adopted family members of a soon to be gone Tom Benson, gets to control the team.
Look, the OP threw out a troll suggestion about a rather unlikely, and certainly implausible, ownership transfer. I jumped aboard and threw out a rather unlikely, and certainly implausible, scenario in which it could actually be done. Then you jump in firing shots, while being completely and utterly confused about what I was saying. Take a look in the mirror, champ. It won't kill you.
FWIW, I'll take the "amusing and confident idiot a-hole" description as a compliment, while recognizing the sarcasm font in which it was typed.
man, I'm headed to bed.This post was edited on 1/28/15 at 1:11 am
Posted on 1/28/15 at 1:12 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
Dang, bro. Why so angry?
Why would I be angry? I found your childish insults amusing
quote:
. So as it turns out, you're seemingly the one having difficulty admitting that you still don't understand the most elementary of concepts, which in and of itself is pathetic. You're wrong and too dense to even see it.
This is going no where. The entire reason you gave for PSLs having an advantage has been proven incorrect.
I can't understand it t for you.
Back to your point about PSLs:
quote:
Plus, the PSL is your asset to re-sell should you wish, an old roommate of mine sold his Texans PSL's for double what he paid for them back in '01.
You stated this was an advantage to season ticket holders that bought it directly from the team.
The Saints season ticket holders can clearly already do that. There's no advantage for season ticket holders.
quote:
The NFL a would also likely have a long list of reasons to work with a Peyton Manning in structuring a deal that worked for everyone, as opposed to enduring the specter of a year's long and protracted legal battle to determine who, out of an almost 70 year old allegedly failed interior decorator or the allegedly batshit crazy adopted family members of a soon to be gone Tom Benson, gets to control the team.
There would still be a battle over Benson's right to sell the team
quote:
Then you jump in firing shots, while being completely and utterly confused about what I was saying. Take a look in the mirror, champ. It won't kill you.
Where did I do that?
I was completely amicable. You drew first blood. Night
This post was edited on 1/28/15 at 1:17 am
Posted on 1/28/15 at 7:45 am to frog legs
I'm in the middle of negotiations to buy the Saints now, please don't put that in jeopardy by introducing this idea. Thanks.
Posted on 1/28/15 at 7:55 am to frog legs
Best idea since "gotta light mate?"
Posted on 1/28/15 at 8:39 am to GrantTheFan
quote:
Tom's initial $1 million cash investment to $35 million dollars in loans was a much more difficult balancing act than a $100 million dollar cash to $500 million credit facility for Goldman Sachs to pull off. It's about percentages, not dollar amounts.
Why don't you look at the fricking link to Forbes I posted and stop making up numbers?
quote:
Price Paid: $70 M
Posted on 1/28/15 at 8:55 am to frog legs
quote:
They can definitely afford it
They can't even afford the pelicans
Posted on 1/28/15 at 9:11 am to WeeWee
quote:
They can't even afford the pelicans
But he could just finance the whole thing from those banks that give $500 million loans b/c the NFL and NBA have cash flows.
The Saints and Benson make more from the deal with the state and Champions Square than Manning will make his entire career.
The Manning's have very little incoming cash after football. The NFL doesn't want a situation where they have to possibly take over a failing financial situation like the NBA did with the Pelicans.
Tom Benson, Paul Allen, Jerry Jones, Arthur Blank, Kraft, and Peyton Manning
This post was edited on 1/28/15 at 9:17 am
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