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Message
re: We all know a spike can grow to a wall hanger but,
Posted on 12/24/14 at 5:39 am to JJBTiger2012
Posted on 12/24/14 at 5:39 am to JJBTiger2012
If you shoot a spike?
I mean come on people.
I mean come on people.
1
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:44 am to TOKEN
Whats wrong with shooting spikes?
My son shot a spike last saturday and it made him happy. I might shoot one tomorrow and I`d be happy. The wife will be happy cause that means she buys less of the crappy ground beef that fills the pan with grease when you brown it.
Ive shot them and let them walk. It just depends on where Im at, what the rules are, and what the freezer looks like. No shame in it.
People keep talking about genetics but I dont think you can determine or manipulate genetics in a wild herd.Just because a buck might be older with a nice rack dosent mean he has better genetics than the spike. They all seem to come from the same basic gene pool in any region.I think good food and age make the racks bigger. But every once in a while you get one born like SHAC or big Herman Johnson.
My son shot a spike last saturday and it made him happy. I might shoot one tomorrow and I`d be happy. The wife will be happy cause that means she buys less of the crappy ground beef that fills the pan with grease when you brown it.
Ive shot them and let them walk. It just depends on where Im at, what the rules are, and what the freezer looks like. No shame in it.
People keep talking about genetics but I dont think you can determine or manipulate genetics in a wild herd.Just because a buck might be older with a nice rack dosent mean he has better genetics than the spike. They all seem to come from the same basic gene pool in any region.I think good food and age make the racks bigger. But every once in a while you get one born like SHAC or big Herman Johnson.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 7:37 am to JJBTiger2012
quote:
Great thread! I mean is it ever good take a spike? What if you've got a big bodies 10" cow horn running around? Shoot it or let it live? I've hunted leases where they want to kill them at 3-4" and some that say don't kill any. Had a buddy who's dad owned a ranch and their prized buck was a long spike for 3 yrs. lol. Out of no where's he grew into a beautiful 10pt.
I never really bought into the idea of once a spike always a spike.
I guess it could happen with a couple deer here and there tho.
We don't exactly grow Boone and Crockett Bucks where I hunt, but we have a couple of decent deer out there. I would say that the vast majority of our bucks have spikes their first year on our lease.
Usually we let them walk, but a couple get shot by younger hunters and maybe a couple taken with a bow each year.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 7:51 am to GROCK
quote:Nothing wrong with a kid taking a spike
Whats wrong with shooting spikes?
My son shot a spike last saturday and it made him happy.
quote:yeah but then why not shoot a doe?
I might shoot one tomorrow and I`d be happy. The wife will be happy cause that means she buys less of the crappy ground beef that fills the pan with grease when you brown it.
quote:agreed, so why not let the spike grow so you have the chance to shoot a bruiser AND fill the freezer?
People keep talking about genetics but I dont think you can determine or manipulate genetics in a wild herd.Just because a buck might be older with a nice rack dosent mean he has better genetics than the spike. They all seem to come from the same basic gene pool in any region.I think good food and age make the racks bigger.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 8:11 am to GROCK
quote:
Whats wrong with shooting spikes?
Nothing at all, depending on the rules of where you hunt. I don't do it, but I don't hold anything against meat hunters
Posted on 12/24/14 at 8:44 am to FelicianaTigerfan
I got hives reading many of the responses so I won't reply to any of them...lol
The two largest deer ever in MS state's deer pens started life as a spike, and 3 point, respectively. Both scored over 200 inches.
Without going into tons of detail using percentages and the like, basically it has been found that yearling antlers are more closely correlated to birth month than genetics. In other words, young bucks born in May will far more likely have forked antlers as a yearling than one born in October, regardless of genetics...and I saw somewhere Dr Kroll brought up...his research showed that by year 3, they had actually caught up to their larger yearling buddies.
All of this doesn't even take into account a young buck born as a set of triplets versus one born as a single fawn (the single will get more nutrition early in life not having to compete), or bucks born to younger does who also "may" not be as good as a mature mother would in nourishing her young.
On top of all this, a Texas study showed that the abundance of spikes as a percentage of the yearling population was also directly tied to the amount of rainfall leading up to and during the antler growing season...less rainfall, less high quality browse.
Did we bring up predators yet, and their abundance in a herd? A "lean" deer who gets run by coyotes won't have the same reserves as one who doesn't, and most of his nutrition will not go into antler building.
Years back I said I was done with this stuff.
it generally leads to sack measuring contests on who knows what. All the info I have provided is there and can be found. I simply don't have the energy for it any more.
The two largest deer ever in MS state's deer pens started life as a spike, and 3 point, respectively. Both scored over 200 inches.
Without going into tons of detail using percentages and the like, basically it has been found that yearling antlers are more closely correlated to birth month than genetics. In other words, young bucks born in May will far more likely have forked antlers as a yearling than one born in October, regardless of genetics...and I saw somewhere Dr Kroll brought up...his research showed that by year 3, they had actually caught up to their larger yearling buddies.
All of this doesn't even take into account a young buck born as a set of triplets versus one born as a single fawn (the single will get more nutrition early in life not having to compete), or bucks born to younger does who also "may" not be as good as a mature mother would in nourishing her young.
On top of all this, a Texas study showed that the abundance of spikes as a percentage of the yearling population was also directly tied to the amount of rainfall leading up to and during the antler growing season...less rainfall, less high quality browse.
Did we bring up predators yet, and their abundance in a herd? A "lean" deer who gets run by coyotes won't have the same reserves as one who doesn't, and most of his nutrition will not go into antler building.
Years back I said I was done with this stuff.
it generally leads to sack measuring contests on who knows what. All the info I have provided is there and can be found. I simply don't have the energy for it any more. Posted on 12/24/14 at 9:57 am to Fratigerguy
Posted on 12/24/14 at 10:50 am to Fratigerguy
excellent post 
Posted on 12/24/14 at 12:07 pm to jorconalx
Around what years did LSU have a deer farm? First I've heard of it.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 12:40 pm to 2indapink
The LSU ag center has had the Idlewild research station for years.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 12:45 pm to Fratigerguy
Have an upvote
Posted on 12/24/14 at 12:49 pm to GROCK
As far as manipulating genetics goes....if you have the ability to know every deer in your herd, including does (after all, they contribute AT LEAST 50% of the antler genes) and are able to remove the animals you want for selective genes, before breeding, it takes, on average, around 13 years to remove a particular genetic trait. Basically, "culling", for the sake of improving a deer herd, whether in the wild or in large pens, is useless. That's why ranches who offer management bucks every year have been doing it for decades, and will continue to do so. Removing them may be beneficial as far as taking mouths out, but not for genetic reasons.
Another note, as I am sure it will come up, even though it hasn't yet....inbreeding.....there is much talk about what it does. How it affects antlers and the whole herd. Multiple studies have been done on it. The most controlled of which was on a 2000 acre penned ranch. No evidence of inbreeding has ever been documented, much less able to be studied to tell what affects it would have. Just thought I would throw that out there since it usually gets brought up in antler topics, especially as it relates to what are thought of as "cull bucks".
Another note, as I am sure it will come up, even though it hasn't yet....inbreeding.....there is much talk about what it does. How it affects antlers and the whole herd. Multiple studies have been done on it. The most controlled of which was on a 2000 acre penned ranch. No evidence of inbreeding has ever been documented, much less able to be studied to tell what affects it would have. Just thought I would throw that out there since it usually gets brought up in antler topics, especially as it relates to what are thought of as "cull bucks".
Posted on 12/24/14 at 3:18 pm to Fratigerguy
quote:
Posted by Fratigerguy
The LSU ag center has had the Idlewild research station for years.
yes, but prior to the current location it was off ben hur - i'm old
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:37 pm to mack the knife
Indeed it was.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 7:17 pm to Fratigerguy
Not sure when they closed the lsu research center on ben hur, but it was still open in the late 80`s.
Fratigerguy, Good info man I very much agree with you. I`ve done quite a bit of research on deer over the years.
That's the good thing about deer hunting. Everyone gets to manage their property like they want to and shoot what they want to.Hunting is supposed to be fun after all.
Merry Christmas everybody!
Fratigerguy, Good info man I very much agree with you. I`ve done quite a bit of research on deer over the years.
That's the good thing about deer hunting. Everyone gets to manage their property like they want to and shoot what they want to.Hunting is supposed to be fun after all.
Merry Christmas everybody!
Posted on 12/24/14 at 11:03 pm to FelicianaTigerfan
When I was in school at Auburn they had a picture at the deer farm of a deer's rack every year for seven years. The first year it was a 6 point then the next a nice 8 point. They then put it on a ruduced nutrient ration and it was a 9" length spike. The next year they resumed the normal ration and it was a really nice rack.
Posted on 12/25/14 at 12:53 am to FelicianaTigerfan
Here's some good research on it:
LINK
Your deer sounds like he will grow a decent rack. Spikes tend to end up with smaller racks, and less body mass, over their life.
I popped a 2.5 year old button/3" spike this year to get him out of the gene pool, and I think there are 1-2 more like that on our place that I also want to take out.
LINK
Your deer sounds like he will grow a decent rack. Spikes tend to end up with smaller racks, and less body mass, over their life.
I popped a 2.5 year old button/3" spike this year to get him out of the gene pool, and I think there are 1-2 more like that on our place that I also want to take out.
Posted on 12/25/14 at 6:52 am to FelicianaTigerfan
There have been tons of studies that show both can result in large main frame deer. Texas Parks and Wildlife
I've always thought it REALLY depends on the area, size of the ranch, and overall health of the herd. If you have a larger tract of land and good protein/water/natural forage then no reason not to cull spikes. I've seen huge swings in antler production in sever drought years so I would use caution.
I've always thought it REALLY depends on the area, size of the ranch, and overall health of the herd. If you have a larger tract of land and good protein/water/natural forage then no reason not to cull spikes. I've seen huge swings in antler production in sever drought years so I would use caution.
This post was edited on 12/25/14 at 12:30 pm
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