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re: The Internal Problem of QB Development
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:57 am to UGATiger26
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:57 am to UGATiger26
quote:
What do we know about Les Miles and turnovers?
It’s pretty much common knowledge that the standard punishment for fumbling is the bench.
How about interceptions?
Well, we know Jarrett Lee threw a bunch of pick-6’s in 2008, and then never started again until Les had no other choice besides a brand-new Zach Mettenberger in 2011.
We know Les replaced Lee the first chance he got in 2011 after throwing a couple of picks against Alabama (not saying that was a bad decision. Jefferson’s running won LSU that game.)
We can’t really make any assumptions about Mettenberger’s picks in 2012 or 2013 because he was far and away the best option, regardless.
We know Harris got banished again after throwing one pass and getting intercepted against Kentucky.
So here’s what I think the problem is…
If this is how turnovers are handled in games, why do we have any reason to believe that turnovers are handled any differently in practice?
Haven’t we always wondered why certain RB’s light it up one game, and then don’t start or barely get any carries in the next game? Could this be the explanation? Turning it over in practice?
Fumble or throw picks in practice and down the depth chart you go….
Wouldn’t this explain all the QB’s transferring out of LSU recently? Makes sense to me. It’s pretty obvious that, other than Mett, LSU has not had any stud QB’s since 2007 that would make younger QB's say "dang, I'm never gonna start over these guys."
Rob Bolden. Stephen Rivers. Hayden Rettig.
So what’s the problem? If those QB’s weren’t performing well, then good riddance, right?
Well, if anyone has ever played QB or is familiar with the mentality of the QB position, they would know that it requires a completely different mindset. It almost requires a mentality of cockiness. Not the bad kind of cockiness, but a level of confidence that nearly borders on cockiness. Because a QB has to break the huddle knowing that he’s going to make a great throw. He has to be confident enough to believe the opposing defense can’t stop him.
Does a culture of getting benched or demoted on the depth chart because of turnovers seem conducive to that type of mentality? To me, it’s dangerous, and not how you want to develop your QB’s, especially your younger QB’s. ESPECIALLY YOUR YOUNGER QBs IN PRACTICE!
Doesn’t this explain the constant worried looks on Jordan Jefferson and Anthony Jennings faces? Doesn’t it explain the inability to make quick and confident decisions with the football? Our QB’s aren’t out there trying to make plays. They’re out there trying not to make mistakes.
My personal opinion is that Les prefers docile QB’s who will be “good soldiers” and avoid turnovers. That’s not necessarily a bad thing in itself, but having that philosophy does have consequences. QB development is suffering from it.
Mett is an easy explanation. He received his early QB development (which is the most vital) at UGA and then at a JUCO college. By the time he arrived at LSU, he was already a confident and experienced QB.
I’m not a nega-tiger or a sunshine pumper. I’m just trying to call it like I see it. I can’t believe the amount of people who excuse the QB play as “let’s face it. We just don’t have an SEC-caliber QB this year.” Well, why the hell not? Why can so many other schools who don’t have the resources of LSU plug in new guys every year who can, at the very least, complete 55-60% of their passes for a couple thousand yards? Why is this such a struggle for LSU? It’s obvious that it’s an internal problem, and not just a matter of external circumstances.
Interesting post with some good ideas and points to consider. We spend 50% of our time on this board arguing over which subpar QB should start (as we did from 2008-2012) and not enough time considering why all of the 4-star recruits we bring in here end up falling flat on their faces. And several of us have posted it, but it bears emphasizing: Miles and his OCs don't get a pass on this issue just because Mett turned out okay. There is obviously something critical in the earlier foundational phase of a QB's development that Mett got at UGA that our coaches either fail to impart or actively impede.
I think think you're on the right track.
2
Posted on 11/21/14 at 10:59 am to SammyTiger
The thought process heading into this season was Jennings would play until mid season and Harris would eventually take over.
There's nothing left to play for this season and the starting qb has 4 TD's in conference play and 4 turnovers. It's time to go to the next guy after an entire season has been wasted on Jennings.
There's nothing left to play for this season and the starting qb has 4 TD's in conference play and 4 turnovers. It's time to go to the next guy after an entire season has been wasted on Jennings.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:04 am to Navytiger74
quote:
There is obviously something critical in the earlier foundational phase of a QB's development that Mett got at UGA that our coaches either fail to impart or actively impede.
Mark Richt! The QB whisperer.
What Mett had that our current and past QBs didn't have is called TALENT. Talent being the physical and mental tools to play the position. Most of our other QBs lack one of the other (sometimes both). It is entirely possible that what we sorely lack is QB talent evaluation.
LSU needs to RUN, not walk and try to pull in Braxton Miller.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:04 am to SammyTiger
quote:
A lot of my opinion of Cam as a developer is based on my belief that Jennings lacks physical skills that are really necessary to run an effective offense in any system.
AJ definitely doesn't have the skill set to run our offense which is frustrating on 2 fronts. He simply isn't a drop back passer and we don't adapt the scheme to make him more effective than he is.
And I fully expected coming into this season to see a steady rotation between AJ and BH and I am not a fan of rotating QBs if avoidable. But sometimes you just have to go with the hot hand if that's the cards that are dealt. But to repeatedly bang our heads against the wall week in and week out is maddening.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:06 am to monsterballads
quote:
There's nothing left to play for this season and the starting qb has 4 TD's in conference play and 4 turnovers. It's time to go to the next guy after an entire season has been wasted on Jennings.
I think we knew this year was going to be a bit of a down year after the Auburn loss, and decided to develop the players based off of what they thought was based, more so than need on the field
thats really the only explanation i can think of.
I agree is Harris needs to see the field if we want to win this year, but i think he will be fine for next year if he doesn't
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:09 am to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
Mark Richt! The QB whisperer.
No one thinks Richt is a "QB whisperer". If you have a point, make it.
quote:
What Mett had that our current and past QBs didn't have is called TALENT. Talent being the physical and mental tools to play the position. Most of our other QBs lack one of the other (sometimes both). It is entirely possible that what we sorely lack is QB talent evaluation.
Oh, here's your point.
If we missed on one, two, or even three QBs, this would be more persuasive. We've had seven 4 and 5 star busts--many of whom were highly recruited by programs with a track record of identifying and developing QBs. All the coaches and all the scouting services in the world can't be that bad at IDing talent.
And look at what MSU is doing with a guy we barely gave any love to. Look at AU is doing with Marshall. Look at what Bama is doing with Sims. Hell look at what they did with GMAC. None of these guys were great talents, and I guarantee you that they'd all be Lee/JJ/AJ if we brought them here.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 11:11 am
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:12 am to Navytiger74
quote:
We've had seven 4 and 5 star busts--many of whom were highly recruited by programs with a track record of identifying and developing QBs. All the coaches and all the scouting services in the world can't be that bad at IDing talent.
Go look at the top ranked QBs and get back to me.
They miss on about 15 out of 20.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:15 am to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
LSU needs to RUN, not walk and try to pull in Braxton Miller.
And do what? Miles would have him under center and he would struggle in this offense just like most spread Qb's would
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:16 am to etm512
quote:
AJ definitely doesn't have the skill set to run our offense which is frustrating on 2 fronts. He simply isn't a drop back passer and we don't adapt the scheme to make him more effective than he is.
i don't think there is a system he would look good in. Just a lack of arm strength, and accuracy.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:17 am to monsterballads
quote:
And do what? Miles would have him under center and he would struggle in this offense just like most spread Qb's would
Was thinking the same thing
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:17 am to BeeFense5
quote:
But Mettenberger could run it.
You saying Mett is better than Manning?
I think what he is saying that no quarterback would succeed with the playcalling we have seen this year. If Mett was here this year, more of the offense would be called. The coaches don't think we can run more than a few different plays and the best bet is a very safe and limited QB to run it. Personnaly, I think it's a terrible decision and has tied the hand of a one handed QB behind his back. But I'm not the coach. I would guess that we see a little more creativity next year, though not anything earth shattering.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:18 am to SammyTiger
quote:
Go look at the top ranked QBs and get back to me.
They miss on about 15 out of 20.
What qb has les recruited out of high school has been even a marginal QB in the SEC?
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:20 am to SammyTiger
quote:
They miss on about 15 out of 20.
Miss as in the guys don't all compete for the Maxwell award, or miss as in the guys are simply not functional as quarterbacks? We're dealing with the latter.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:24 am to SammyTiger
quote:
i don't think there is a system he would look good in. Just a lack of arm strength, and accuracy.
Good - probably not
More effective than what we currently have - absolutely. And that was my point
Posted on 11/21/14 at 11:48 am to BeeFense5
With Mett we weren't running 2TE, 2RB, 1WR HB dives up the middle into a 10-man box.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:03 pm to Navytiger74
quote:
Miss as in the guys don't all compete for the Maxwell award, or miss as in the guys are simply not functional as quarterbacks? We're dealing with the latter.
I went and looked at the class that would be a senior/Redshirt junior on our team. I looked at the pro style QBs
Christian LeMay -- UGA- 2 attempts at UGA, now on Jacksonville Gamecocks
Jacoby Brissett-- UF-- pretty decent but at second school
Max Wittek USC-- transfered to Hawaii, 3 td to 6 picks career to far
Cody Kessler-- USC-- Best of the Bunch.
David Ash-- Texas-- too confused to play, mediocre career at Texas
Kyle Boehm--Cal-- 4 years 0 passes
Everett Golson--NOtre Dame- good career, talented off field issues, but good.
Jake Rudock--Iowa- nothing of note, 12 td to 4 pick this year
Phillip Ely -Bama- 4 passes at Bama- plays for Toledo now, injured
Sam Richardson-Iowa St-- 14- 6
Stephen Weatherford- Cincinnati- no longer on team, i can't even find a stat line for him
Gary Nova- Rutgers- probably one of the best carreers so far.still mediocre.
Mike Bimonte-Rutgers- NO stats
Colton Kane- FAU- can't find stat line
Kade Bell-didn't sign
Nick SanGiacomo- Tulane- transferred to Central Connecticut State University.
The Dual threat class did much better (Bridgewater, Mariota, Manziel, Braxton miller, HUndley)
But we aren'y going to pull a QB from Ohio away from Ohio state, or a QB form hawaii probably ever.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 12:08 pm to UGATiger26
quote:
We just don’t have an SEC-caliber QB this year.” Well, why the hell not? Why can so many other schools who don’t have the resources of LSU plug in new guys every year who can, at the very least, complete 55-60% of their passes for a couple thousand yards? Why is this such a struggle for LSU? It’s obvious that it’s an internal problem, and not just a matter of external circumstances.
this
Posted on 11/21/14 at 3:33 pm to DBU
quote:
With Mett we weren't running 2TE, 2RB, 1WR HB dives up the middle into a 10-man box.
because Mettenburger who complete a pass.
So could Peyton Manning
There is a little bit of grey Area between aphony Jennings and Mettenburger.
Probably a few QBs in there that could run our offense.
Posted on 11/21/14 at 3:52 pm to SammyTiger
quote:
because Mettenburger who complete a pass.
So could Peyton Manning
There is a little bit of grey Area between aphony Jennings and Mettenburger.
If it was obvious Jennings was a lost cause because as you said earlier lack of arm strength and accuracy....then how could Miles possibly let LSU go into this year with only 2 scholarship QBs. A true freshman and a guy that (at least according to Sammytiger) doesn't have the skill set to be an SEC QB?
If you have a lack of talent and experience at the most important position on the field who does that fall on?
It's bullshite that a team of LSU's caliber should be in a position like this....again.
There is no excuse. Either recruit talent or coach the guys you recruited. But this shite show is ridiculous. I honestly feel sorry for the players including Jennings. they aren't put in a position to be successful.
This post was edited on 11/21/14 at 3:54 pm
Posted on 11/21/14 at 3:53 pm to SammyTiger
Bradford
Mazeil
Winston
Barrett
Leinart
were all Redshirts
And 3 of the 5 were playing for Offensive specialist HCs, and the other two had previous Heisman winning QBs coached by their OCs.
Kiffin was one of Leinart's QB coaches and Leinart was coached by Norm Chow.
You want to know what all those coaches did to help make those players succeed? They adjusted their offenses to fit the players rather than trying to force them into their offense. Sumlin was upfront before Manziel's Heisman season that he had to change things to fit Manziel in his scheme and playcalling.
That is the difference with LSU. They don't develop QBs because they try to force square pegs into round holes. This happened with JJ who was a pro-style QB all the way with mobility, but when they started pushing him to be more of a runner, his passing abilities went to crap.
It's also nice how most of you seem to forget that in 2012 our WRs were horrendous with dropped passes. I remember in the UW game in that year that Mett had like 5 of his 6 incompletions be perfect passes that were flat out dropped by the likes of Landry and Beckham. He was showing signs of his 2013 form from the beginning and got better with experience which fans saw in the Bama game and those following it minus the bowl game with games of 296, 282, and 273 yards against SEC foes. Hell even in the Arky game that year he had 217 yards passing.
The bowl game made everyone question him again, but the whole team played like crap. Cameron gets way way too much credit for Mett's development and people ignore how much improved our top 2 WRs were in 2013.
Mazeil
Winston
Barrett
Leinart
were all Redshirts
And 3 of the 5 were playing for Offensive specialist HCs, and the other two had previous Heisman winning QBs coached by their OCs.
Kiffin was one of Leinart's QB coaches and Leinart was coached by Norm Chow.
You want to know what all those coaches did to help make those players succeed? They adjusted their offenses to fit the players rather than trying to force them into their offense. Sumlin was upfront before Manziel's Heisman season that he had to change things to fit Manziel in his scheme and playcalling.
That is the difference with LSU. They don't develop QBs because they try to force square pegs into round holes. This happened with JJ who was a pro-style QB all the way with mobility, but when they started pushing him to be more of a runner, his passing abilities went to crap.
It's also nice how most of you seem to forget that in 2012 our WRs were horrendous with dropped passes. I remember in the UW game in that year that Mett had like 5 of his 6 incompletions be perfect passes that were flat out dropped by the likes of Landry and Beckham. He was showing signs of his 2013 form from the beginning and got better with experience which fans saw in the Bama game and those following it minus the bowl game with games of 296, 282, and 273 yards against SEC foes. Hell even in the Arky game that year he had 217 yards passing.
The bowl game made everyone question him again, but the whole team played like crap. Cameron gets way way too much credit for Mett's development and people ignore how much improved our top 2 WRs were in 2013.
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