Started By
Message

re: Dennis Prager on why poverty does NOT cause crime

Posted on 11/18/14 at 8:44 pm to
Posted by Crow Pie
Neuro ICU - Tulane Med Center
Member since Feb 2010
25285 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 8:44 pm to
Darwin had it right...the cream rises to the top.
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54723 posts
Posted on 11/18/14 at 8:52 pm to
He's right it's not that his community was poor, it's that Russians are criminal by nature. It's part of their culture.
Posted by Tchefuncte Tiger
Bat'n Rudge
Member since Oct 2004
57079 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:34 am to
quote:

there are many people who believe they do not have an opportunity



I've highlighted the buzzword.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
420634 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 8:50 am to
quote:

If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.

a. again, when you speak about these things in terms of values, the whole "history" argument becomes irrelevant

b. nothing you listed should cause any issues with valuing education, avoiding having kids, avoiding criminal behavior, and getting some sort of job in youth. these don't require a superior education, owning a home, owning a bank account, or "living in perpetual fear of the 'system"
Posted by Tigerstudent08
Lakeview
Member since Apr 2007
5776 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 9:30 am to
quote:

If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.


I agree that almost all the problems in the black/white community stem from this. So with that being said, we are basically throwing good money away investing in something that will never change, right? Or is the answer to have the government/churches/etc. start raising kids instead of the parents? Seems like the definition of insanity to just keep giving handouts to people that will never change.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:19 am to
quote:

I agree that almost all the problems in the black/white community stem from this. So with that being said, we are basically throwing good money away investing in something that will never change, right? Or is the answer to have the government/churches/etc. start raising kids instead of the parents? Seems like the definition of insanity to just keep giving handouts to people that will never change.


I wholeheartedly agree that "handouts" are not the answer. I've said many times that I don't have any solutions. That's what's so distressing to me about this topic - this country has committed such an evil that I'm not sure it can be repaired.

I think the only way is for an honest accounting to be taken of what contributed to this mess. And despite people continually saying "it's in the textbooks"...it just isn't, not in any meaningful sort of way. I'll bet that to a man on this board, if you sought out the older generations in your families and said "why didn't black people start buying houses in 1950 just like grandpa?" the answer would NOT BE: "well, you see, Jim Crow was alive and well...even going so far as to have the federal government actively engaged in preventing them from doing so". MUCH MORE LIKELY would be "these people were always lazy and could never get their shite together".
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
420634 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:23 am to
quote:

this country has committed such an evil that I'm not sure it can be repaired.

that is utter bullshite

that is the exact sort of defeatist attitude the fuels the lower class mentality culture (for whites and blacks and latinos and asians)
Posted by Tigerstudent08
Lakeview
Member since Apr 2007
5776 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:33 am to
quote:

this country has committed such an evil that I'm not sure it can be repaired.

Well I couldn't disagree anymore with this. If you look at every race throughout every country since the history of mankind they have all faced some serious trials and tribulations. Thankfully they did not all have this same quitter attitude that you do. The most obvious example are the jews. You think they wouldn't have traded places with blacks in the 1940s?!? Why were they able to prosper?
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:43 am to
quote:

The most obvious example are the jews. You think they wouldn't have traded places with blacks in the 1940s?!? Why were they able to prosper?


Israel received a massive reparations package from Germany in the early 50's that is credited with totally revitalizing the Israeli economy.

quote:

Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September 1952, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure, and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.[3][8] Israel at the time faced a deep economic crisis and was heavily dependent on donations by foreign Jews, and the reparations, along with these donations, would help turn Israel into an economically viable country.


LINK

As late as 1988, even MORE reparations were approved.

LINK

And then again just since 2012 EVEN MORE has been approved:

LINK

And perhaps even more important than the money, was the act of Germany society and the German sovereign basically admitting to and owning up to what they had done. Prior to the passage of the act, the German people's narrative was very self-serving:
quote:


In 1952, when West Germany began the process of making amends for the Holocaust, it did so under conditions that should be instructive to us. Resistance was violent. Very few Germans believed that Jews were entitled to anything. Only 5 percent of West Germans surveyed reported feeling guilty about the Holocaust, and only 29 percent believed that Jews were owed restitution from the German people.


quote:

“The rest,” the historian Tony Judt wrote in his 2005 book, Postwar, “were divided between those (some two-fifths of respondents) who thought that only people ‘who really committed something’ were responsible and should pay, and those (21 percent) who thought ‘that the Jews themselves were partly responsible for what happened to them during the Third Reich.’?”


quote:

Germany’s unwillingness to squarely face its history went beyond polls. Movies that suggested a societal responsibility for the Holocaust beyond Hitler were banned. “The German soldier fought bravely and honorably for his homeland,” claimed President Eisenhower, endorsing the Teutonic national myth. Judt wrote, “Throughout the fifties West German officialdom encouraged a comfortable view of the German past in which the Wehrmacht was heroic, while Nazis were in a minority and properly punished.”


LINK

Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 10:45 am to
quote:

that is utter bullshite that is the exact sort of defeatist attitude the fuels the lower class mentality culture (for whites and blacks and latinos and asians)


So what is your plan to address an intentionally-created, massive wealth gap? I imagine part of your response is "education". Well, that's a good bit easier when you have plenty of money to spend on an education isn't it?
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89445 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 12:25 pm to
quote:

Well, that's a good bit easier when you have plenty of money to spend on an education isn't it?


Tap the brakes, Big Scrub - this isn't 1955 anymore. ANYONE who wants an eduction can get it in 2014 - plenty of money to go around. I borrowed money to go to school, pretty sure Jake did, as did 90% of my law school classmates.

Don't tell me brothers can't be bothered to fill out the paperwork. There are whole separate funds of money and other programs just for black folks to go to school.

Play another card.

This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 12:26 pm
Posted by tiderider
Member since Nov 2012
7703 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 12:30 pm to
Winfrey was born into poverty in rural Mississippi to a teenage single mother and later raised in an inner-city Milwaukee neighborhood. She experienced considerable hardship during her childhood, saying she was raped at age nine and became pregnant at 14; her son died in infancy.[15] Sent to live with the man she calls her father, a barber in Tennessee, Winfrey landed a job in radio while still in high school and began co-anchoring the local evening news at the age of 19. Her emotional ad-lib delivery eventually got her transferred to the daytime-talk-show arena, and after boosting a third-rated local Chicago talk show to first place,[16] she launched her own production company and became internationally syndicated.

she seems to have overcome this horrible atrocity committed by america ...


course, if her ancestral tribe hadn't sold her into slavery, she never would've been a billionaire ...
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 12:46 pm to
quote:

Tap the brakes, Big Scrub - this isn't 1955 anymore. ANYONE who wants an eduction can get it in 2014 - plenty of money to go around. I borrowed money to go to school, pretty sure Jake did, as did 90% of my law school classmates. Don't tell me brothers can't be bothered to fill out the paperwork. There are whole separate funds of money and other programs just for black folks to go to school.


Due to draconian sentencing laws (largely put into place under Clinton) even very small-time criminal offenses preclude student loan borrowings. And keep in mind - black people are arrested at much higher rates than white people...even when the overall commission levels of the crime are about equal. (The simple way to think about it would be the white kid with the professional dad gets off with a wrist slap and no record while the black kid is fully prosecuted.)

This doesn't tell the whole story, but I believe sentencing and prison reform is an absolute necessity. The ridiculous, abusive system in place now preys on minorities and the poor and effectively erects permanent roadblocks for them.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 12:46 pm to
quote:

she seems to have overcome this horrible atrocity committed by america ... course, if her ancestral tribe hadn't sold her into slavery, she never would've been a billionaire ...


Yes, you've proven your point by citing the extreme outlier.
Posted by SlowFlowPro
Simple Solutions to Complex Probs
Member since Jan 2004
420634 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 12:51 pm to
quote:

The simple way to think about it would be the white kid with the professional dad gets off with a wrist slap and no record while the black kid is fully prosecuted

i do criminal defense in a 50-50 area primarily and have practiced criminal defense in BR, Lafayette, as well as smaller towns like DeRidder, Cameron, and Jennings. if we're talking minor offenses, everyone gets a "slap on the wrist" the first time.

quote:

The ridiculous, abusive system in place now preys on minorities and the poor and effectively erects permanent roadblocks for them.

i agree with you here. i disagree that race has anything to do with the implementation or execution

that doesn't mean that blacks and the poor are not disproportionately affected, mind you, but the "crack legislation is racist" argument is just stupid. i think the harshest penalties i've come across in LA are for PCP, anyawy. legislatures react to new moral panics by making sentencing harsher
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89445 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

legislatures react to new moral panics by making sentencing harsher


In Louisiana - switchblade possession is about the same as possessing a hand grenade? Why? Scared old white people watched that movie, The Blackboard Jungle and West Side Story and peed their pants.

But, back to Big Scrub - so you're saying that no matter what we say - until we make things perfect, it's all white people's fault? Even though Jake and I have helped black folks, represented black folks and never did any of that slaving/Jim Crowing - there is a stain of blood - or even worse, because white people have immigrated here even since the CRA and they're to blame as well, it is a stain of race?

How enlightened.
This post was edited on 11/19/14 at 2:36 pm
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 5:05 pm to
quote:

i agree with you here. i disagree that race has anything to do with the implementation or execution


That's potentially true presently. But when this current harsh round of "law and order" was put in place in the late-80's and early 90's, it was basically explicitly aimed at black people. And that's the point - it basically created a massive incarceration of a specific population...for crimes that did not match the sentencing nor that matched the treatment of white offenders. Then couple that with punitive treatment of ex-cons and you get the current underclass.
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33223 posts
Posted on 11/19/14 at 5:17 pm to
quote:

But, back to Big Scrub - so you're saying that no matter what we say - until we make things perfect, it's all white people's fault? Even though Jake and I have helped black folks, represented black folks and never did any of that slaving/Jim Crowing - there is a stain of blood - or even worse, because white people have immigrated here even since the CRA and they're to blame as well, it is a stain of race?


I don't know if that's a fair summary of what I'm saying. I'm saying that instead of sitting up on a high horse and acting as if everything is as simple as just declaring yourself (I'm not speaking of you specifically) morally superior to an entire class of people without EVER questioning what could have possibly led to such a thing is lazy at best. An intelligent person might take a step back and say "gee, I wonder if what I'm looking at had any antecedents at all that might complicate my pat little self-serving narrative."

And my contention is that if you educate yourself on American history, you might find that the government and our ancestors did some rather shocking things which had lasting, devastating impact. Further, I think the right thing to do is to acknowledge those facts instead of constantly dodging them.

Perhaps the answer isn't aggressive policing that perpetually puts an entire population behind bars.

The bottom line is that blacks fear/mistrust the entire system...and that's not just because they are lazy criminals. The system has done a lot to them that is often hard to notice as a white person.

first pageprev pagePage 6 of 6Next pagelast page
refresh

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram