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re: How were German armored divisions so much more elite than their US counterparts

Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:32 pm to
Posted by theGarnetWay
Washington, D.C.
Member since Mar 2010
25849 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:32 pm to
quote:


The Russians didn't jump in on the Japanese until the twlight of the war. They just wanted a seat at the table at that point.


For the life of me I can't remember its name and I can't seem to find it on Google, but I swear there was a pretty big battle between the Soviets and the Japanese in China during the course of the war. I might be mistaken but I was thinking that because the Russians defeated the Japanese so considerably they were able to move troops over from Siberia in order to counter attack the Germans at Stalingrad.
Posted by geauxtigers87
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2011
25180 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:34 pm to
I think what you're thinking of the Russians had a sizeable force on that border because the Japanese kicked the shite out of them before WWI and they were nervous of them because of that. Stalin finally let his generals move forces from there to reinforce the eastern front
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48247 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:35 pm to
LINK

Soviet agent Richard Sorge is the reason why Stalin could move just about all of his Far East forces to the front against the Germans. Sorge was able to obtain intelligence indicating that Japan had no intention of honoring its alliance with Germany by attacking the Soviet Union.

Khalkin-Gol is the 1939 battle between the Soviets and Japanese

LINK
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 9:38 pm
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:36 pm to
quote:

For the life of me I can't remember its name and I can't seem to find it on Google, but I swear there was a pretty big battle between the Soviets and the Japanese in China during the course of the war.


It may have happened, but there's no record of it until the very end.

They were not in a state of war until August 1945. By treaty the Soviets had to declare war on Japan 3 months after the conclusion of the war in Europe - they invaded on August 8, 3 months to the day - as agreed. It was also, coincidentally 2 days after Little Boy and the day before Fat Man.
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 9:37 pm
Posted by OleWar
Troy H. Middleton Library
Member since Mar 2008
5828 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:37 pm to
Battles of Khalkhyn Gol which occurred in 1939.

Posted by theGarnetWay
Washington, D.C.
Member since Mar 2010
25849 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:39 pm to
That must've been it. Because the Japanese had hammered the Russians earlier in the century they got a little greedy into Soviet territory, then the Russians hammered them in '39 and the Japanese never tried to incur into Soviet territory again.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:39 pm to
quote:

Khalkin-Gol is the 1939 battle between the Soviets and Japanese


Yeah - we often forget that, because it started before the war proper - occurring between the Spanish Civil War and the Invasion of Poland.

ETA: This was the battle in which Zhukov cut his teeth.
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 9:41 pm
Posted by geauxtigers87
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2011
25180 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:40 pm to
I never knew the Russians had to declare war by treaty. That's really interesting
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:44 pm to
quote:

Because the Japanese had hammered the Russians earlier in the century


Russo-Japanese of '04-'05 was primarily a naval struggle, though, with a few exceptions.

That was kind of a sequel to the Sino-Japanese of a decade earlier, too.
Posted by theGarnetWay
Washington, D.C.
Member since Mar 2010
25849 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:45 pm to
quote:



Russo-Japanese of '04-'05 was primarily a naval struggle, though, with a few exceptions.



Didn't they get into Siberia though? And the West pretty much told them to leave? (which obviously pissed off the Japanese who realized they would never be treated as equals in the West)
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48247 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:52 pm to
Mukden was a huge land battle in the Russo Japanese War.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 9:58 pm to
quote:

And the West pretty much told them to leave?


Teddy Roosevelt brokered the deal.

quote:

Didn't they get into Siberia though?


Mainly fought over Korea and Manchuria - the Japanese didn't make out all that bad - after all, they won the war. They didn't get all of Sakhalin or monetary reparations, but everyone de facto recognized their claim to Korea and the Russians evacuated Manchuria.

Treaty of Portsmouth

It was an unpopular peace treaty with the Japanese public - it set the state for strained U.S.-Japanese relations culminating with Pearl Harbor.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:00 pm to
quote:

Mukden was a huge land battle in the Russo Japanese War.


Yeah - Mukden was the preview for WWI - in fact much of the land portion of R-J were.

Germany sent observers, among others, and everyone tried to draw lessons and revise tactics. The intense, fairly bloody for their day battles got the Europeans into thinking about trenches and how to fight the next war. Shaped the prepartions for the Great War, no doubt.
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 10:01 pm
Posted by OleWar
Troy H. Middleton Library
Member since Mar 2008
5828 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:02 pm to
The area of the fight was in Manchuria in the 04-05 Russo Japanese War. The fights in 39 were in Mongolia. The Japanese were in Siberia during the Russian Civil War and so were we. Public opinion in Japan drove them out because the fight was becoming too costly. They held on to Sakhalin Island which they lost after World War II.
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48247 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:20 pm to
When did the US Army and armor units first get really serious about learning how to fight a land war in Europe?

Not until the very important Louisiana Maneuvers of 1940 and again in 1941. The wiki entry on these maneuvers is rather sparse. There's more info in other places.

The Louisiana Maneuvers are a relatively unknown part of WW2 history, but, this is unfortunate. These months of military training were extremely important and all of the Generals that you know from your US WW2 in Europe history were involved in these maneuvers.

LINK
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 10:22 pm
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89472 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:22 pm to
quote:

The Louisiana Maneuvers


Museum is about 4 miles and change from where I'm sitting. My grandfather had breakfast and/or coffee with George S. Patton on many mornings while he'd watch the troops head to the field.
Posted by euquol
New Orleans
Member since Jan 2012
2736 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

Hell, if they hadn't been there most of Western Europe probably would have fallen under the Soviet block.


Which to me would have been just as terrifying as the Nazis controlling Europe.
Posted by BoostAddict
Member since Jun 2007
2986 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:25 pm to
Awesome fricking thread. I could read this stuff all night.
Posted by Champagne
Already Conquered USA.
Member since Oct 2007
48247 posts
Posted on 10/24/14 at 10:32 pm to
I have not visited the Museum. I'd like to.

Even though the museum is in Pineville, few people know just how massive the 1941 maneuvers really were. The opposing northern army had elements in Shreveport, while the southern army had elements located in JENNINGS, LA which is near the Gulf coast.

Patton conducted a sweeping motorized maneuver from south to north that swung to the west through Texas then back into Louisiana during the 1941 maneuvers.

Ace, can you back me up on this point? How critical and important was it for the US Generals of the European theater to get large-scale troop maneuver and command experience in 1940 and 1941 to prepare them for ground combat in North Africa and Europe?
This post was edited on 10/24/14 at 10:50 pm
Posted by Amazing Moves
Member since Jan 2014
6044 posts
Posted on 10/25/14 at 12:38 am to
Side note... How large is the German military now?
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