- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Isis is Bush's fault?
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:00 pm
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:00 pm
So, I'm having this email discussion with a former co-worker who is a loyal Dem. He explained it this way:
6 or 7 years ago there were a bunch of very nice moderate Muslim young men hanging around the Arab version of Starbucks and discussing the upcoming camel races.
Then they heard about Abu Grhaib and torture by Bush and his minions. They became radicalized and formed Isis.
My question. Is this line being pushed on MSNBC, CNN, etc? I haven't seen it in the NYT or USA.
6 or 7 years ago there were a bunch of very nice moderate Muslim young men hanging around the Arab version of Starbucks and discussing the upcoming camel races.
Then they heard about Abu Grhaib and torture by Bush and his minions. They became radicalized and formed Isis.
My question. Is this line being pushed on MSNBC, CNN, etc? I haven't seen it in the NYT or USA.
17
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:17 pm to Zach
Yes, he created a vacuum by getting rid of Saddam. They filled it. Pretty simple.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:18 pm to Zach
Obama and Bush both share fault for ISIS current power
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:18 pm to Zach
Bush is certainly a contributing factor, but there were so many f*&kups along the way that it's impossible to pin ISIS's expansion on any one person. There's a lot of crumby hands in the cookie jar.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:20 pm to TT9
quote:
Yes, he created a vacuum by getting rid of Saddam. They filled it. Pretty simple.
This is Bush's burden of fault
Obama's is pulling out of Iraq without a stable government in place and covert support of ISIS (and their allies) in Syria
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:22 pm to Zach
It's somewhat W/Cheney's fault for getting rid of Saddam who under any rational evaluation was a secular and moderate (relatively speaking). He helped keep Iran AND militant Islamists in check.
We took out Saddam for ridiculous reasons, upsetting the delicate power balance in the Middle East, and this is what happened.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this disaster scenario could have been predicted (I genuinely believe that Bush/Cheney meant well (for both shareholders of defense contracting firms and democracy in the ME) but he was incredibly naive to think that democracy in the ME would be so simple).
We took out Saddam for ridiculous reasons, upsetting the delicate power balance in the Middle East, and this is what happened.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this disaster scenario could have been predicted (I genuinely believe that Bush/Cheney meant well (for both shareholders of defense contracting firms and democracy in the ME) but he was incredibly naive to think that democracy in the ME would be so simple).
This post was edited on 9/2/14 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:23 pm to jamboybarry
I don't believe there will ever be a stable gov't there.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:23 pm to jamboybarry
quote:
Obama and Bush both share fault for ISIS current power
But...I need to pin this on the political party I'm not affiliated with.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:23 pm to TT9
quote:
Yes, he created a vacuum by getting rid of Saddam. They filled it. Pretty simple.
way more succinct than my evaluation
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:24 pm to TT9
quote:
I don't believe there will ever be a stable gov't there.
But there was*
*For the purposes of this discussion, stable = ruthless enough to put down any extremist group posing a threat to the regime
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:25 pm to kingbob
quote:
Bush is certainly a contributing factor, but there were so many f*&kups along the way that it's impossible to pin ISIS's expansion on any one person. There's a lot of crumby hands in the cookie jar.
The bush administration is reason #1 ISIS exists. There have been a lot of frickups as you say, but if we didn't invade iraq, there is no isis. arguably no arab spring either
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:25 pm to jamboybarry
quote:
Obama's is pulling out of Iraq without a stable government in place and covert support of ISIS (and their allies) in Syria
In defense of Obama, he both won the Dem nomination over hawkish Hillary AND got elected over hawkish McCain in large part due to promises to get us the hell out.
I think that Republicans should give Obama SOME credit for not pulling out immediately as much as his base wanted, but for continuing the game plan for a while, getting UBL, and then at least TRYING to withdraw without everything going to hell.
I thought Obama handled it as well as he could have - he obviously had to get out (or promise to get out) before the 2012 election or else his party would have been really pissed.
I honestly think that Obama has basically given up at this point and is going through the motions. He got his healthcare act passed, he got us out of Iraq, he helped save the US auto industry, he's presided over a great rebound in the economy, and everybody seems to hate him regardless. I think he's just like "frick it, I'm going to play golf for 2 years" at this point. He inherited such a ridiculous mess.
This post was edited on 9/2/14 at 12:28 pm
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:27 pm to SirWinston
quote:
We took out Saddam for ridiculous reasons, upsetting the delicate power balance in the Middle East, and this is what happened.
There is one question I raised during the whole thing and no one has ever been able to answer it.
In real time... Saddam either had WMD or he did not.
If he did not, why did he ban inspectors?
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:27 pm to SirWinston
quote:
In defense of Obama, he both won the Dem nomination over hawkish Hillary AND got elected over hawkish McCain in large part due to promises to get us the hell out.
So? He made an incredibly naive campaign promise and then followed through on said naivety.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:28 pm to Zach
quote:
If he did not, why did he ban inspectors?
That Muslim/Middle Eastern man mentality. You can't back a Muslim or Arab man into a corner - he won't surrender. He'd rather die and lose everything than submit to an enemy that he hates.
It's similar to Imperial Japan. The only hope is secularization. Look at how brilliant Japan has turned out once they became a largely agnostic populace.
This post was edited on 9/2/14 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:30 pm to Zach
quote:
There is one question I raised during the whole thing and no one has ever been able to answer it.
In real time... Saddam either had WMD or he did not.
If he did not, why did he ban inspectors?
its pretty clear he didn't have WMD.
And he wasn't planning on giving them to terorrist.
Anyway, the reason is posturing.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:30 pm to Hawkeye95
How I assign blame to the current prevalence and strength of ISIS:
5. wealthy Saudi Arabian and other Arab Emirates monetary support for ISIS and similar radical Muslim groups
4. Assad for coordinating his military strikes with ISIS, working together to kill off all of the other rival rebel factions, leaving ISIS as the sole opposition to Assad in Syria.
3. Obama supporting Maliki regime and withdrawing troops when Maliki insisted the U.S. do so as well as selling arms to Syrian rebel factions that were later crushed or absorbed by ISIS.
2. Bush Administration removing Saddam and supporting Maliki regime while barring former Saddam regime members from serving in the new government
1. Al Maliki's blatant partisonship, purging Sunni's and Kurds from the government and military
5. wealthy Saudi Arabian and other Arab Emirates monetary support for ISIS and similar radical Muslim groups
4. Assad for coordinating his military strikes with ISIS, working together to kill off all of the other rival rebel factions, leaving ISIS as the sole opposition to Assad in Syria.
3. Obama supporting Maliki regime and withdrawing troops when Maliki insisted the U.S. do so as well as selling arms to Syrian rebel factions that were later crushed or absorbed by ISIS.
2. Bush Administration removing Saddam and supporting Maliki regime while barring former Saddam regime members from serving in the new government
1. Al Maliki's blatant partisonship, purging Sunni's and Kurds from the government and military
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:31 pm to jamboybarry
quote:
So? He made an incredibly naive campaign promise and then followed through on said naivety.
Be fair - he didn't pull out of Iraq or Afghanistan immediately like his base expected. He hung in there and tried to play it both ways.
If he hadn't promised to withdraw (and started to withdraw) by 2012 elections, he'd have had a mutiny on his hands. And like 85% of the US public wanted the hell out by then anyway.
Posted on 9/2/14 at 12:31 pm to Zach
I'm sure that will be the spin.
For Obama, Iraq is a non-issue--claim credit like he did in 2012, blame Bush as shite hits the fan like it's doing now. That's the bet they're hedging and sounds like your friend has bought it.
Obviously you could trace today's events back to Bush, but it's naïve IMO to claim Obama had no effect on what happened.
2007 Surge, cleaned things up, offered 2011 withdrawl.
Obama opposed surge, followed plan and credited himself for ending war by following outline.
After ISIS, he's basically claiming his hands were tied bc of the 2008 SOFA and it was out of his hands from that point on before he took office.
For Obama, Iraq is a non-issue--claim credit like he did in 2012, blame Bush as shite hits the fan like it's doing now. That's the bet they're hedging and sounds like your friend has bought it.
Obviously you could trace today's events back to Bush, but it's naïve IMO to claim Obama had no effect on what happened.
2007 Surge, cleaned things up, offered 2011 withdrawl.
Obama opposed surge, followed plan and credited himself for ending war by following outline.
After ISIS, he's basically claiming his hands were tied bc of the 2008 SOFA and it was out of his hands from that point on before he took office.
Page 1 of 6
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News