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Which nation, or nations, have provided ISIS the support they need

Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:29 pm
Posted by wfallstiger
Wichita Falls, Texas
Member since Jun 2006
11321 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 12:29 pm
to wage war or is this group so independent of others that no nation, or nations, can exert any leverage on this most current incursion into Iraq?
Posted by PenguinNinja
Antarctica (and Japan)
Member since Sep 2011
2081 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:09 pm to
Um...Saudi Arabia.

What do I win?
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:14 pm to
quote:

to wage war or is this group so independent of others that no nation, or nations, can exert any leverage on this most current incursion into Iraq?


No nation will own having supplied ISIL with support, but 10s of millions in "non-state" monies have flowed from GCC countries (esp. Saudi, but also Qatar, Kuwait, and UAE).

And leverage? Al-Qaida couldn't exert leverage on these guys. These are hardcore Wahabis who wouldn't hesitate to slit another Sunni's throat for looking at them cross-eyed. Shias get about as much consideration as Christians and Jews.

Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
66976 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:16 pm to
Saudi Arabia, many of the gulf Emarates, and the old Saddam guard. Most of the people running things in the organization and commanding the ground forces are former Saddam regime members. They do so because The Islamic State gave them a voice, a purpose, and more importantly, a job, which the Al Maliki regime barred them from having.
Posted by rcocke2
New Orleans
Member since Apr 2009
1690 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:16 pm to
Whether or not we purposely armed this group or another more 'moderate' group like the FSA John McWar was palling around with a couple yrs ago, these people will just sell these weapons to the next group, ISIS, and now apparently ISIL. Its too funny that people on this board are so dense.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
134817 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:18 pm to
quote:

ISIS, and now apparently ISIL


I thought these two were the same group.
Posted by Vegas Eddie
The Quad
Member since Dec 2013
5975 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:19 pm to
quote:

I thought these two were the same group.




Pretty sure they are
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
66976 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

ISIS, and now apparently ISIL


I thought these two were the same group.



They are. It's just a different translation:\
Islamic State of Iraq and Syria
Islamic State of Iraq and Al Shams (Greater Syria)
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:21 pm to
quote:

these people will just sell these weapons to the next group, ISIS, and now apparently ISIL.


Not precisely true. FSA's leadership is sincerely opposed to ISIL's intervention in Syria (for political as well as moral and religious reasons) and have been fighting pitched battles against them (much to Damascas' delight). But one would have to be laughably naive to argue that some of that support doesn't get to more extreme Islamists.

Not a fan of the FSA here, btw. I'd prefer for Assad to remain in power. We've seen time and again how incapable political Islamists are of runnign a country.
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:28 pm to
quote:

Saudi Arabia, many of the gulf Emarates, and the old Saddam guard. Most of the people running things in the organization and commanding the ground forces are former Saddam regime members. They do so because The Islamic State gave them a voice, a purpose, and more importantly, a job, which the Al Maliki regime barred them from having.


Don't conflate the former Baathists (who were largely secular) with the fanatics in ISIL. Your post was fairly accurate in describing the conditions that allowed a group like ISIL to recruit, thrive, and now enjoy a fairly sympathetic Sunni population, but the guys who make up the core of their fighters don't give two flips about Saddam or other secularists. Likewise, former regime officers and officials don't really care for them. They saw them as a useful tool in destabilizing the country and toppling the Shia regime in Bagdhad. There is no real comity between the two, and the Baathists have no interest in being a part of their caliphate.

The two groups have clashed fairly recently. They won't be able to hold an alliance.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 1:45 pm
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
66976 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:30 pm to
They wouldn't if they had a role in the Iraqi government. ISIS gave them a purpose. Who do you think are the military officers in ISIS? Who is running logistics? It's not Imams, it's Baathists.
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
134817 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:32 pm to
quote:

Not a fan of the FSA here, btw. I'd prefer for Assad to remain in power. We've seen time and again how incapable political Islamists are of runnign a country.



I don't understand how advocates of arming the opposition don't see this.
Posted by CamdenTiger
Member since Aug 2009
62355 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:37 pm to
I thought the US funded them, at least, before now?
Posted by Navytiger74
Member since Oct 2009
50458 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:42 pm to
quote:

They wouldn't if they had a role in the Iraqi government. ISIS gave them a purpose. Who do you think are the military officers in ISIS? Who is running logistics? It's not Imams, it's Baathists.


When you say "looking for purpose", it sounds as though they were some teenage cast-abouts roused to action by the spiritual ferver instilled in them by some firebrand Iman. They were/are not looknig for purpose. They're looking for a return to power. AQI cum ISIL was their best vehicle for destabilizing the government. I'm as sure as you are that the Baathists lent technical expertise, military training, etc. to the young disaffected Sunnis that ISIL did actually give purpose to, but I'm fairly certain that the ISIL's spiritual leaders are calling the shots.

Baathism was a secular movement. Saddam started talking "caliphates" etc. to shore up Sunni support when he was weakest abroad, but those Baathists don't believe in anything except regaining power (and, interestingly, secular government).

You'll find no disagreement that a lot of this could have been avoided with a more inclusive government and pragmatic approach to de-baathification.
This post was edited on 6/30/14 at 1:44 pm
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
66976 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:43 pm to
quote:

I thought the US funded them, at least, before now?


They did, indirectly. They were funding different Syrian and Libyan resistance groups without realizing that many of those groups later sided with or were co-opted by ISIS. We were also running guns to them in Benghazi, including the Stinger Missiles our brass keep complaining about when asked about why American contractors haven't been pulled out. Don't kid yourself, ISIS is the blowback of 2 decades (really 6) of bad decisions in the Middle East.
Posted by cwill
Member since Jan 2005
54752 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:51 pm to
No nation, but Saudi nationals have been the most significant funding sources of jihadis including ISIS.
Posted by wfallstiger
Wichita Falls, Texas
Member since Jun 2006
11321 posts
Posted on 6/30/14 at 1:55 pm to
was wondering who was the head of the snake and I would have guessed some Saudi connection/influence
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