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2nd amdt spinn off, "well regulated militia"

Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:47 pm
Posted by Mr.Perfect
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2013
17438 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:47 pm
quote:

FINAL WORDS FROM THE FOUNDING FATHERS ON THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people.... To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.... " --George Mason
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. " --Thomas Jefferson


"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms...To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike...how to use them." --Richard Henry Lee


"A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." --Amendment II, Constitution of the United States



Interpreting the 2nd ammendment this way, which I do, would make me think that not only is this an individual right, but also that the government should provide marksmanship and weapons training to all citizens.

Is that the take you have and should this be the case? Should I be able to go to the range and shoot on the gov't dime?

eta: well regulated to me = well trained and capable of protecting the nation
This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 2:49 pm
Posted by GhostofJackson
Speedy Teflon Wizard
Member since Nov 2009
6602 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:49 pm to
Spinoff of the spinoff: do people who think all drugs should be legal also believe that all forms of weaponry should be illegal?
Posted by boosiebadazz
Member since Feb 2008
80161 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:49 pm to
quote:

Should I be able to go to the range and shoot on the gov't dime?


sounds like an entitlement program to me
Posted by Mr.Perfect
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2013
17438 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:50 pm to
Posted by Mr.Perfect
Louisiana
Member since Mar 2013
17438 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:51 pm to
quote:

sounds like an entitlement program to me


I am mainly talking about access to dirrerent rifles and pistols. Not really asking them to give me 5k rounds a week
Posted by Antonio Moss
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2006
48294 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:55 pm to
quote:

Interpreting the 2nd ammendment this way, which I do, would make me think that not only is this an individual right, but also that the government should provide marksmanship and weapons training to all citizens.

Is that the take you have and should this be the case?


No. Rights are limitations on government action. They do not require action on the part of government or private actors.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69249 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:56 pm to
Vegas Bengal is wrong when he says that the "militia" referred to a body of men under the control of the federal government.
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
61204 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:57 pm to
The notion of disarming colonists living in an agrarian society in the mid-18th century is absurd. Guns were an essential, everyday part of life.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89480 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 2:58 pm to
quote:

Interpreting the 2nd ammendment this way, which I do, would make me think that not only is this an individual right, but also that the government should provide marksmanship and weapons training to all citizens.


Wiki on Civilian Marksmanship Program

Program Homepage
This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 2:59 pm
Posted by boosiebadazz
Member since Feb 2008
80161 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:00 pm to
quote:

The federal law enacted in 1996 (Title 36 U. S. Code, 40701-40733) that created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS, the formal legal name of the CMP) mandates these key “functions for the corporation:

(1) To instruct citizens of the United States in marksmanship;

(2) To promote practice and safety in the use of firearms;

(3) To conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors.

The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.


'Merica

[that's not snark; I actualy like that the government promotes this]
Posted by Strannix
District 11
Member since Dec 2012
48841 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:01 pm to
quote:

Guns were an essential, everyday part of life.


Isn't the right to defend my life and property an essential everyday asset?
Posted by L.A.
The Mojave Desert
Member since Aug 2003
61204 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:02 pm to
quote:

Isn't the right to defend my life and property an essential everyday asset?
Absolutely. I'm pro-gun ownership. I have a Winchester 20 gauge pump shotgun and a 32-caliber revolver, both weapons intended for home protection and therefore something my wife can use. I'm thinking about buying a 9mm to replace the 32.
This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 3:12 pm
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89480 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:02 pm to
quote:

[that's not snark; I actualy like that the government promotes this]


Boosie - I kind of think of you as the SFP Mark 2.0 - Jake was liberal as heck back in the day. You're smart, are a critical thinker and not totally co-opted by the leftist, statist establishment.

You'll be traditionally conservative, libertarian or some combination within 5 years. Mark it down.

Posted by boosiebadazz
Member since Feb 2008
80161 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:04 pm to
I think we've discussed this before. I'm aware of the Churchill quote and I think my tipping point will be once I have kids.

ETA: But I'm going to continue to be a dirty liberal around here for awhile, though.
This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 3:05 pm
Posted by Chimlim
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Jul 2005
17712 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:05 pm to
quote:

do people who think all drugs should be legal also believe that all forms of weaponry should be illegal?


Ironically, a lot of people I know who toke up favor strict gun control.
Posted by WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
44071 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:05 pm to
quote:

eta: well regulated to me = well trained and capable of protecting the nation

At the time "well regulated" referred to arms and munitions. "Disciplined" had the meaning that you refer to regarding training.

Contrary to popular belief, the Militia was not just a bunch of farmers with guns who showed up on the scene at any given time. They had to actually enroll (conscripted) and be trained in the militia:

That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act [Militia Act, 1792].

...And receive actual training:

That the rules of discipline, approved and established by Congress, in their resolution of the twenty-ninth of March, 1779, shall be the rules of discipline so be observed by the militia throughout the United States, except such deviations from the said rules, as may be rendered necessary by the requisitions of the Act, or by some other unavoidable circumstances. It shall be the duty of the Commanding Officer as every muster, whether by battalion, regiment, or single company, to cause the militia to be exercised and trained, agreeably to the said rules of said discipline.[Militia Act, 1792].

I believe it was the Militia Act of 1903 that officially made the National Guard assume all the duties that had been previously assigned to the Militia.

But that clause in the 2nd Amendment is troubling to me. It could have been made much clearer by either the exclusion of the militia phrase, or more clearly defining the duties of the militia.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89480 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:12 pm to
quote:

But that clause in the 2nd Amendment is troubling to me. It could have been made much clearer by either the exclusion of the militia phrase, or more clearly defining the duties of the militia.


The perfect is the enemy of the good, WT. The clear language in the dominant clause is relatively unambiguous, "...the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The militia clause of the Second Amendment doesn't bother me any more than the "Congress shall make no law" does in the First - it's not perfect language, but the intent and subsequent application is very clear. In fact, the First Amendment has been stretched much further to protect all sorts of speech (all the way to pornography) that were never intended to be on equal footing with political speech (IMHO), while it seems a relatively extreme amount of stretching has to be done by the left to regulate things such as magazine capacity, folding stocks, and other such nonsense. Every right is subject to reasonable restrictions, but the left seems to want to "reasonably restrict" the Second Amendment out of existence.

And they can do that - propose a repeal. Let's see how far that gets them.

This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 3:13 pm
Posted by GhostofJackson
Speedy Teflon Wizard
Member since Nov 2009
6602 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:13 pm to
Seeing as the revolutionary war was fought against a supposedly tyrannical government by many people who were not professional soldiers but mainly irregulars, it amuses me that anyone could believe the founding fathers wanted only the government to be well armed and not the citizens.
Posted by WildTchoupitoulas
Member since Jan 2010
44071 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:16 pm to
quote:

Seeing as the revolutionary war was fought against a supposedly tyrannical government by many people who were not professional soldiers but mainly irregulars, it amuses me that anyone could believe the founding fathers wanted only the government to be well armed and not the citizens.

Indeed, it looks more to me like the federal government didn't want any part of the expense of arming a defense force, and left it up to the able-bodied white males to provide their own arms.
Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69249 posts
Posted on 5/30/14 at 3:23 pm to
Militia simply means armed populace. The founders wanted to use one word rather than two, I guess. Like I have said before, the amendment, using 18th century definitions, can be rewritten as: An efficiently armed populace being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
This post was edited on 5/30/14 at 3:24 pm
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