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Started By
Message
Philosophy vs Practicality. Would you compromise?
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:48 am
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:48 am
The more and more I think about some of the things that have become talking points in politics, the more I realize that the GOP position is almost always on the wrong side of the aisle from a public perception standpoint. It almost seems to me that we should just concede certain points so we can move on to the bigger picture.
To do this, I'd imagine you have to identify issues where GOP support is marginal and projected to get worse. For instance, with more and more Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers leaving the earth, support for things like gay rights will only swing the pendulum even further in the libs direction.
So why not identify the losing battles? Take a long, hard look in the mirror and say, "This battle is over. We can't win it. Let's focus on the battles we CAN win."
Healthcare, for instance. Let's just f'ing embrace single-payer of some sort that reduces costs. If demographics dictate that voters are going to demand universal healthcare (which it has), we might as well come out and say, "Fine - but we're going to make this the most efficient system possible. We'll mimic Canada or Australia or whoever, but we're also going to mimic their costs."
Because I don't care so much about the philosophical consequences of such a move. I care that we reduce our spending 35%.
Spending goes down. Hopefully we'd be taxed less, no? That seems like an opportunity for compromise. But is it something that you guys would support? Essentially, would you be willing to go along with a single-payer system or something else that reduced costs if it meant lower taxes? Never having to hear the debate about healthcare again?
Obviously, the same argument can be had for tons of social issues (abortion, gay rights, war on drugs, etc). Just identify the losing battles and using them as bargaining chips towards cementing a winnable platform...sounds like a winning proposition. Bitter pill, but practical.
But that's just me and I'm only recently getting into politics over the past few years. And I can see the arguments that if we "give an inch, they'll take a mile." I can see the arguments that we should never compromise on important issues. But is it practical? Is it a winning strategy?
To do this, I'd imagine you have to identify issues where GOP support is marginal and projected to get worse. For instance, with more and more Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers leaving the earth, support for things like gay rights will only swing the pendulum even further in the libs direction.
So why not identify the losing battles? Take a long, hard look in the mirror and say, "This battle is over. We can't win it. Let's focus on the battles we CAN win."
Healthcare, for instance. Let's just f'ing embrace single-payer of some sort that reduces costs. If demographics dictate that voters are going to demand universal healthcare (which it has), we might as well come out and say, "Fine - but we're going to make this the most efficient system possible. We'll mimic Canada or Australia or whoever, but we're also going to mimic their costs."
Because I don't care so much about the philosophical consequences of such a move. I care that we reduce our spending 35%.
Spending goes down. Hopefully we'd be taxed less, no? That seems like an opportunity for compromise. But is it something that you guys would support? Essentially, would you be willing to go along with a single-payer system or something else that reduced costs if it meant lower taxes? Never having to hear the debate about healthcare again?
Obviously, the same argument can be had for tons of social issues (abortion, gay rights, war on drugs, etc). Just identify the losing battles and using them as bargaining chips towards cementing a winnable platform...sounds like a winning proposition. Bitter pill, but practical.
But that's just me and I'm only recently getting into politics over the past few years. And I can see the arguments that if we "give an inch, they'll take a mile." I can see the arguments that we should never compromise on important issues. But is it practical? Is it a winning strategy?
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:49 am to ocelot4ark
quote:
Practicality
quote:
Let's just f'ing embrace single-payer of some sort that reduces costs
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:54 am to ocelot4ark
Single payer health care is not an option.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:58 am to TN Bhoy
quote:
TN Bhoy
What's confusing? We spend more on healthcare than any other country. We don't, depending on the metric used, get a higher degree of service for that extra money spent. Our life expectancy is only 35th in the world. Norway (2nd highest expenditures) has a life expectancy that is 25th overall. Switzerland is 3rd in spending, 15th in expectancy. F'ing Japan is 20th in spending, 5th in life expectancy.
Obviously, environmental/cultural differences account for some of the differences.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 11:59 am to TheDiesel
quote:
Single payer health care is not an option.
Why? Philosophical or something more measurable that I should research?
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:01 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:
What's confusing?
Converting the American healthcare system to single-payer is not practical in any way, shape, or form.
quote:
Norway (2nd highest expenditures) has a life expectancy that is 25th overall
And is below the replacement rate.
quote:
Switzerland is 3rd in spending, 15th in expectancy
And is below the replacement rate
quote:
F'ing Japan is 20th in spending, 5th in life expectancy.
And is so far below the replacement rate that it's not even worth talking about them.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:02 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:
Obviously, environmental/cultural differences account for most of the differences.
Also we count infant mortality as part of overall life expectancy, which is outside the norm. Also we spend the money towards developing drugs that the rest of the world benefits from.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:02 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:
Healthcare, for instance. Let's just f'ing embrace single-payer of some sort that reduces costs. If demographics dictate that voters are going to demand universal healthcare (which it has), we might as well come out and say, "Fine - but we're going to make this the most efficient system possible. We'll mimic Canada or Australia or whoever, but we're also going to mimic their costs."
This is where you lose me.
Libertarians and conservative republicans will fight this tooth and nail to the death. We do not have the demographics, tax bases and overall lifestyles to maintain this in an efficient way and with no gov't abuse coming from it that will not put us under crushing debt.
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 12:03 pm
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:02 pm to TheDiesel
quote:
Single payer health care is not an option.
All options are on the table.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:07 pm to ocelot4ark
So Reps should just simply embrace the Dems positions? Why would someone vote for a Rep. trying to run a Dem scheme when they do it much better?
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:08 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
Then add the "fair" tax or whatever the pols call it nowadays to the table. Everyone pays the same rate.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:11 pm to Revelator
quote:
So Reps should just simply embrace the Dems positions? Why would someone vote for a Rep. trying to run a Dem scheme when they do it much better?
Not at all. These are fringe issues, for the most part. I just used health care for whatever reason.
My point is simply that we do an analysis. Look at demographic trends in this country. Where do you see the GOP going in terms of numbers? Higher or lower, knowing that minorities are increasingly becoming the majority and just so happen to lean liberal?
To me, the writing is on the wall that the GOP is going to be muscled out by inevitability. The Libs will have higher numbers year-by-year. Even Texas is getting more liberal.
Perception is reality, though. So if you come out and just accept an issue, sign off on legislation, or drop the issue altogether...I feel there might be some swings in perception that could foster the party beyond the next few years. Long term viability would seem to be an obvious threat to the GOP, IMO.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:14 pm to TN Bhoy
quote:
Converting the American healthcare system to single-payer is not practical in any way, shape, or form.
Why? You're just stating an opinion. Why don't you think it is practical?
quote:
And is below the replacement rate.
This is where you lost me (I'm a novice, remember). What is replacement rate and how does it work with the numbers I posted vs what's on wikipedia for life expectancy by country (where I got those figures)?
Genuinely asking.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:15 pm to Qwerty
quote:
Also we count infant mortality as part of overall life expectancy, which is outside the norm. Also we spend the money towards developing drugs that the rest of the world benefits from.
The drug thing is definitely true. Maybe it's time American pharmaceutical companies start passing those costs on to everyone, not just us.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:17 pm to Sentrius
quote:
Libertarians and conservative republicans will fight this tooth and nail to the death. We do not have the demographics, tax bases and overall lifestyles to maintain this in an efficient way and with no gov't abuse coming from it that will not put us under crushing debt.
And I think this is where a lot of people would get lost. Why don't we have the demographics, tax bases, and lifestyles to maintain this? What makes us different from, say, the UK?
I'm basically just looking at this from a dollars and cents perspective. I've been under the assumption that we grossly overpay for our medical care compared to the rest of the world. SURELY a country as great as the US could improve that.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:21 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:You have cost and price confused.
Let's just f'ing embrace single-payer of some sort that reduces costs.
We're the richest country on the planet. Why would you expect the price of healthcare to be cheaper here?
quote:Bring data before making this claim.
Hopefully we'd be taxed less, no?
quote:How is implementing your opponents agenda "winning"?
Is it a winning strategy?
It's like saying every time we get the ball, let's run all the way backwards toward the end zone. No one will oppose us! Our OL won't have to do a bit of work!
This way we can cross the goal line more times than our opponent! They may make like, 2 or three thouchdowns. We will score EVERY TIME WE TOUCH THE BALL!
Look... we're only giving up 2-points each time. And we will score more times than they will! Everybody wins!
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:22 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:
This is where you lost me (I'm a novice, remember). What is replacement rate and how does it work with the numbers I posted vs what's on wikipedia for life expectancy by country (where I got those figures)?
Genuinely asking.
The replacement rate is the rate of births compared to deaths at which a population is birthing exactly as many babies each year as are other citizens dying. If a country is above the replacement rate, that country's population is increasing. If a country is below the replacement rate, that country's population is declining because there are not enough babies being born to replace the population that is dying off.
This use to only happen in times of extreme famine, disease, or war. Now, we are seeing this phenomenon in post-industrialized, wealthy countries all over the world because middle and upper class citizens aren't having enough children.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:25 pm to kingbob
quote:
This use to only happen in times of extreme famine, disease, or war. Now, we are seeing this phenomenon in post-industrialized, wealthy countries all over the world because middle and upper class citizens aren't having enough children.
Yeah, I was going to ask how this somehow meant that those country's heathcare systems weren't working...
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:48 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
You have cost and price confused.
We spend an average of $8K+ per citizen, no? That's what we're spending. The average for the other 33 OECD countries is just over $3K.
quote:
We're the richest country on the planet. Why would you expect the price of healthcare to be cheaper here?
So do we also have the most expensive clothes in the world? Cars? Homes? Shoes? Groceries? I'm struggling to see your point.
Also - I don't think we're the world's richest country.
quote:
Bring data before making this claim.
Isn't that just basic math? If we spend $3k less, on average, per person on healthcare, and we have over 317 million people in this country...isn't that saving us almost a trillion dollars per year in public/private funds? That's some extremely low hanging fruit. "We'll agree to healthcare reform as long as income taxes are reflective of new cost efficiencies. No more taxing us at the same level when the operating budget just shrunk $1 trillion."
quote:
How is implementing your opponents agenda "winning"?
It's like saying every time we get the ball, let's run all the way backwards toward the end zone. No one will oppose us! Our OL won't have to do a bit of work!
This way we can cross the goal line more times than our opponent! They may make like, 2 or three thouchdowns. We will score EVERY TIME WE TOUCH THE BALL!
Look... we're only giving up 2-points each time. And we will score more times than they will! Everybody wins!
Actually, I'd say my program is to simply run to the open spots on the field. Don't try to run straight into a 9 man front stacked up over center if there's no one on the outside.
Don't give up. Change the game. I shouldn't have used any examples because it seems to distract people from the greater issue. Is the philosophy more important than winning, ever again, in the future? Because the libs seems to be pretty good at bringing these fringe issues into the limelight and getting the discussion to be solely related to those.
So take that option away from them. Identify the battles you can't win and move on. That seems practical to me. The battles you can't win.
Posted on 4/1/14 at 12:59 pm to ocelot4ark
quote:That's the price. Not the cost. There is nothing in the US that makes the cost significantly higher than anywhere else. The price is so much higher, because the price must not only cover the cost of any given procedure... but it must cover the cost of those that don't pay.
We spend an average of $8K+ per citizen, no?
Given that so few actually pay for medical care, it should be NO surprise that the price we pay is so high. Your mistake (and it's common) is to presume that price and cost are related in our healthcare delivery. They are not.
quote:Do rich people shop at WalMart and drive Hyundais? Or do rich people shop at Tiffany and drive Ferraris? They both sell watches that tell time and both cars will get you two and from work. But the prices... are not equivalent.
So do we also have the most expensive clothes in the world? Cars? Homes? Shoes? Groceries? I'm struggling to see your point.
quote:(?)
Also - I don't think we're the world's richest country.
quote:Nope. You're first going to have to prove that prices will go down. Then you're going to have to show that given a $1T/yr deficit the government is going to be cutting taxes.
Isn't that just basic math?
quote:Actually it isn't. But admire your naivate.
Actually, I'd say my program is to simply run to the open spots on the field
quote:I suppose it depends if you think scoring points for the other team is winning or not. And you should consider if the point of politics is to advance your agenda, or is the point to be popular?
Is the philosophy more important than winning, ever again, in the future?
quote:Loser's attitude.
The battles you can't win.
This post was edited on 4/1/14 at 1:09 pm
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