Started By
Message
locked post

Is Water Vapor a Greenhouse Gas? If not what are the implications?

Posted on 3/25/14 at 9:53 am
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 9:53 am
This is a spin off global warming thread from several GW threads that populate the poli board on a regular basis.

So I was thinking, in none of these GW threads the term Greenhouse effect has never been defined. I mean the entire bases of GW/AGW theory is based on the definition of the Greenhouse effect. Therefore at a minimum I should have a good understanding of what the Greenhouse effect is...so as any 5th grader should I looked up the definition. From the IPCC website:

quote:

Greenhouse effect
Greenhouse gases effectively absorb thermal infrared radiation, emitted by the Earth’s surface, by the atmosphere itself due to the same gases,and by clouds. Atmospheric radiation is emitted to all sides, including downward to the Earth’s surface. Thus, greenhouse gases trap heat within the surface-troposphere system. This is called the greenhouse effect. Thermal infrared radiation in the troposphere is strongly coupled
to the temperature of the atmosphere at the altitude at which it is emitted. In the troposphere, the temperature generally decreases with height. Effectively, infrared radiation emitted to space originates from an altitude with a temperature of, on average, -19°C, in balance with the net incoming solar radiation, whereas the Earth’s surface is kept at a much higher temperature of, on average, 14°C. An increase in the concentration of greenhouse gases leads to an increased infrared opacity of the atmosphere and therefore to an effective radiation into space from a higher altitude at a lower temperature. This causes a radiative forcing that leads to an enhancement of the greenhouse effect, the so-called enhanced greenhouse effect.


Note the bolded part. That caught my attention. The way I interpret the bolded part is simple; with an increase in a greenhouse gas there is a corresponding increase in global temperature. This is called a positive feedback effect. That is, as the concentration of greenhouse gases increase the temperature increases within a system until the system changes (or the boundary conditions of the system change).

So I read further in the IPCC glossary and the next defined term was "Greenhouse gas":

quote:

Greenhouse gas
Greenhouse gases are those gaseous constituents of the atmosphere,both natural and anthropogenic, which absorb and emit radiation at specific wavelengths within the spectrum of thermal infrared radiation emitted by the Earth’s surface, by the atmosphere itself, and by clouds. This property causes the greenhouse effect. Water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), nitrous oxide (N2O), methane (CH4), and ozone (O3) are the primary greenhouse gases in the Earth’s atmosphere. Moreover, there are a number of entirely human-made greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as the halocarbons and other chlorine- and bromine-containing substances, dealt with under the Montreal Protocol. Besides CO2, N2O, and CH4, the Kyoto Protocol deals with the greenhouse gases sulfur hexafluoride (SF6), hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs), and perfluorocarbons (PFCs).


I bolded Water Vapor here because as I read through the list of greenhouse gases based the definition of greenhouse effect, I thought to myself,"wait, water vapor does not behave like this...water vapor does not impart positive feedback mechanism in the greenhouse effect...it's negative. And since water vapor is negative it falls outside the definition of a greenhouse gas according to the IPCC."

I only know water vapor has a negative feedback effect on temperature simply by observing it. If you are metro New Orleans resident you can easily observe the negative feedback effect that water vapor has on temperature. For example, New Orleans consistently has a dew point (measure of water vapor) higher than Mandeville which is only 25 miles north of the city separated by Lake Pontchartrain. Because Mandeville generally has lower dew points, due to the lake effect on New Orleans, Mandeville averages lower temperatures. The less water vapor in the Mandeville air allows daytime temperatures to increase at a higher rate than New Orleans temperatures and vise versa at night. This is a negative feedback. That is, the higher the concentration of water vapor the lower the rate of change of temperature.

So I googled my observation and of course I was not the only one to observe the negative feedback effect of water vapor. I found an awesome youtube video demonstrating what I described between New Orleans and Mandeville with other cities around the world. I can't link a youtube video on this computer so just google "youtube negative feedback effect of water vapor" and you'll see the youtube video I'm referring to.

Along with the youtube video proving the negative feedback effect of water vapor I also came across this scholarly paper which has huge implications: LINK


quote:

We have analyzed a wide variety of albedo and IR differences which are associated with rainfall variations on many different space and time scales. Our goal is to determine the extent to which we are able to accept or reject thereality of the Global Climate Model (GCM) simulations. The following analysis indicates that the GCM simulation of the influence of a doubling of CO2 give far too much global warming. We anticipate that a doubling of CO2 will act in a way to cause the global hydrologic cycle to increase in strength by approximately 3-4 percent. Our analysis indicates that there will be very little global temperature increase (~0.3oC) for a doubling of CO2, certainly not the 2-5oC projected by the GCMs.


Conclusion 1: instead of seeing higher temperatures due to increased CO2 levels we will see greater precipitation.

Conclusion 2: water vapor is not a greenhouse gas according to IPPC because it lacks a positive feedback effect.

Thoughts?

I know, tl;dr.

Posted by CITWTT
baton rouge
Member since Sep 2005
31765 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 9:57 am to
Why wouldn't water vapor in the upper portions of the atmosphere act in a manner of reflecting solar energy upwards?
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 9:59 am to
quote:

Why wouldn't water vapor in the upper portions of the atmosphere act in a manner of reflecting solar energy upwards?


If obviously does. Cloudy days are cooler than clear days.
Posted by wilfont
Gulfport, MS on a Jet Ski
Member since Apr 2007
14860 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:02 am to
No question we need to regulate geysers. Screw Old Faithful.
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112362 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:06 am to
Water Vapor is not only a GH gas. It is THE largest component of GH gasses. Man has nothing to do with the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere.
Posted by Taxing Authority
Houston
Member since Feb 2010
57012 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:08 am to
quote:

GumboPot
Wtf?! How dare you think for yourself?! You are a heretic! The ministry of AGW have decreed the truth by consensus. Expect an immediate excommunication!
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:15 am to
quote:

Water Vapor is not only a GH gas. It is THE largest component of GH gasses. Man has nothing to do with the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere.


Not by the IPCC's own definition. Oh, they may call it a greenhouse gas, but their definition precludes it from being one.
Posted by Scruffy
Kansas City
Member since Jul 2011
71980 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:16 am to
quote:

Is Water Vapor a Greenhouse Gas?
Yes, and it is probably the most influential of greenhouse gases.

It is hard to argue an agenda if your main argument is that water vapor is the issue. People wouldn't comprehend how something so necessary as water could be the problem.
Posted by KeyserSoze999
Member since Dec 2009
10608 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:21 am to
water good, oil bad


its good to be the one who gets to set the standards
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:36 am to
quote:

It is hard to argue an agenda if your main argument is that water vapor is the issue. People wouldn't comprehend how something so necessary as water could be the problem.


The broader point which I should have made clearer is the assumption that water vapor is a GH gas that has a positive feedback effect when in fact it's just the opposite. This assumption was included in computer modeling which forecast greater temperatures due to higher co2 concentrations. Water vapor will stabilize any climate variation due to the concentration of other GH gases. It acts as a dampener in an analogous mass/spring/dampening system.
Posted by PaddlingTiger
St. Louis, MO
Member since Jun 2010
1066 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:36 am to
I think you answered your question in your post. You noted that New Orleans has higher average temperatures than Slidell and higher water vapor levels (as evidenced by dew points). It would seem that this is consistent with water vapor being a positive feedback as higher water vapor levels correlate with higher average temperatures in your example.
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:44 am to
quote:

You noted that New Orleans has higher average temperatures than Slidell and higher water vapor levels (as evidenced by dew points).


Did not say that. With lower water vapor concentrations (rel. humidity or dew point) Slidell will see higher day time temps and lower night time temps than New Orleans. Thus the negative feedback on New Orleans due to higher concentrations of water vapor.
Posted by PaddlingTiger
St. Louis, MO
Member since Jun 2010
1066 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 10:58 am to
quote:

Mandeville averages lower temperatures


This post was edited on 3/25/14 at 11:00 am
Posted by kingbob
Sorrento, LA
Member since Nov 2010
66973 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:03 am to
Clouds aren't water vapor, they're condensation (liquid water suspended in air by wind and temperature differences among a variety of factors). Clouds reflect heat above them, but hold in heat beneath them. That makes them an insulator, but not a greenhouse due to the huge amounts of heat they repel. Even if it feels hotter in a humid area, the temperature isn't actually any higher. It just "feels" hotter due to the humidity. Humidity also negates much of our natural cooling systems by preventing perspiration from evaporating.
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:10 am to
quote:

Mandeville averages lower temperatures


Lower lows and higher highs = Mandeville (when New Orleans in under lake effect conditions) = lower relative humidity = less water vapor concentrations = less negative feedback.

Higher Lows and lower highs = New Orleans (when New Orleans is under lake effect conditions) = higher humidity = more water vapor concentrations = more negative feedback.

Positive feedback exasperates a condition (higher positive and lower negatives). Negative feedback stabilizes a condition (lower positives and higher negatives).

Lake effect on New Orleans occurs when the wind gently blowing out of the north.
Posted by davesdawgs
Georgia - Class of '75
Member since Oct 2008
20307 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:18 am to
If you don't believe water vapor is a greenhouse gas, just step into any greenhouse in the South on a hot summer day. Seriously though, water vapor probably has a lot more impact on climate than man-made contributing factors: LINK
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:19 am to
quote:

Clouds aren't water vapor, they're condensation (liquid water suspended in air by wind and temperature differences among a variety of factors). Clouds reflect heat above them, but hold in heat beneath them. That makes them an insulator, but not a greenhouse due to the huge amounts of heat they repel. Even if it feels hotter in a humid area, the temperature isn't actually any higher. It just "feels" hotter due to the humidity. Humidity also negates much of our natural cooling systems by preventing perspiration from evaporating.


Totally agree.

In fact in the video I recommended watching in the OP the author records temperatures in Huntsville, AL and Las Vegas, NV which both are on the same latitude (same sun exposure) and sufficiently inland to not have a seabreeze effect. The primary difference between the two different cities is relative humidity (water vapor concentrations). It can be observed that Huntsville has lower highs and higher lows due to the negative feedback of the higher concentration of water vapor.

Albeit, some people describe Huntsville as hotter due to the lack of evaporation on your skin in Huntsville, due to higher humidity. Huntsville is clearly cooler than Las Vegas due to the negative feedback on temperature due to water vapor.
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:28 am to
quote:

If you don't believe water vapor is a greenhouse gas, just step into any greenhouse in the South on a hot summer day.


First, I'm going by the IPCC's definition of greenhouse gas. By their definition water vapor is ruled out because it provides a negative feedback effect. Despite begin ruled out they still classify water vapor as a greenhouse gas. I don't even know if they are aware of the logical contradiction.

Second, when you measure the heat within a physical greenhouse with well defined boundary conditions you are measuring the heat capacity of the gaseous mixture in the greenhouse.

Even though climate science like to use the "greenhouse" analogy, it's not analogous. The fundamental difference between a greenhouse and the earth's atmosphere is a greenhouse has a defined boundary condition, its walls and roof. The earth's atmosphere boundary condition is infinite.
Posted by PaddlingTiger
St. Louis, MO
Member since Jun 2010
1066 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:28 am to
What you are describing is the fact that water vapor (and corresponding clouds) both prevent heat from reaching the surface of the Earth and trap heat on the surface of the Earth. With less clouds and water vapor, more heat hits the Earth (higher highs) and more heat dissipates at night (lower lows). To understand the overall impact, you look at the average temperatures. As you noted, Mandeville has lower average temperatures than New Orleans and corresponding lower water vapor levels. While one example does not prove much of anything, at least in your example, water vapor appears to be a positive feedback loop to surface temperature as it appears, based on the information you posted, more heat is trapped by clouds (higher average surface temperature)than escapes from the lack of clouds. I am not making a broader statement about water vapor, as one example is certainly not enough, this is just analyzing the info you posted.
This post was edited on 3/25/14 at 11:31 am
Posted by GumboPot
Member since Mar 2009
118550 posts
Posted on 3/25/14 at 11:34 am to
Please see this video. LINK

It answered the question of whether water vapor is a positive or negative feedback. For the tl;dr, it's 30 minutes.
first pageprev pagePage 1 of 2Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookTwitterInstagram