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Mass vs velocity? What are your thoughts? .45 superior to 9mm
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:12 am
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:12 am
We have all heard about the scenario that requires the penetration of an arm before getting to the body cavity because the subject will likely have his/her arms out and be aiming at you. If the round has to strike nothing but the body cavity a 9mm and .45 both have wonderful penetration performance. The issue I would like to bring up is that the 9mm relies primarily on velocity for it's penetration while the .45 relies more on mass. If the round strikes an arm before reaching the body cavity the 9mm will lose velocity and therefore loss penetration potential when it reaches center mass. The .45 will maintain most of its mass and so, in theory, should have better penetration when it reaches center mass. What are your thoughts on this?
16
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:15 am to DanTiger
The difference is just how much velocity we're talking.
Modern 9mm +p loads can get around 1200fps (124gr bullet) whereas the best I've seen in 45 is the Hornady Critical Duty going about 950-975 (220gr bullet).
But in penetration tests, the 9mm still performs very well. Also take into consideration how many more rounds you get in a 9mm. Almost twice the ammo and quicker follow-up shots allows the opportunity for more hits on target.
Modern 9mm +p loads can get around 1200fps (124gr bullet) whereas the best I've seen in 45 is the Hornady Critical Duty going about 950-975 (220gr bullet).
But in penetration tests, the 9mm still performs very well. Also take into consideration how many more rounds you get in a 9mm. Almost twice the ammo and quicker follow-up shots allows the opportunity for more hits on target.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:17 am to bapple
quote:
Modern 9mm +p loads can get around 1200fps (124gr bullet) whereas the best I've seen in 45 is the Hornady Critical Duty going about 950-975 (220gr bullet).
But in penetration tests, the 9mm still performs very well. Also take into consideration how many more rounds you get in a 9mm. Almost twice the ammo and quicker follow-up shots allows the opportunity for more hits on target.
I agree with all of this but I am talking about one scenario where the round has to penetrate an arm bone before striking center mass. The 9mm will lose velocity and that is what makes it what it is. The .45 will lose some velocity but that is not a deal breaker for an already sub sonic round. I would love to see a test run on this.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:19 am to Choirboy
quote:
.40 CAL BEATS THEM BOTH
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:24 am to DanTiger
shoot the perp in the balls = problem solved (and bad genes removed from the pool)
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:34 am to DanTiger
quote:
I agree with all of this but I am talking about one scenario where the round has to penetrate an arm bone before striking center mass. The 9mm will lose velocity and that is what makes it what it is. The .45 will lose some velocity but that is not a deal breaker for an already sub sonic round. I would love to see a test run on this.
Well it also depends on bullet design. A 45 hardball will definitely penetrate the most but due to it's non-expanding nature, it will most likely over penetrate.
An effective hollow point in 9, 40, or 45 that penetrates an acceptable depth should work well. I'm sure bullet designers take that into consideration when designing hollow points.
Take for example the Hornady Critical Duty. It is designed to be able to penetrate certain barriers like dry wall and windshields. This round isn't ideal out of a carry gun in my eyes because that round relies on a full-length barrel for the velocity to aid in expansion. But then again, this round is rated for pretty deep penetration since it is designed for LE to be able to shoot through barriers. In your scenario it would work well since you are talking about max penetration.
If you compare the two in different bullet designs, things change a bit. So it would depend on all factors being the same. Most 9mm hollow points are designed to expand at a controlled rate to get to vitals. But then again, introduce a hardball round and you'll get extremely high penetration for both rounds.
To sum up my rant, examine the bullet design of your carry rounds before carrying.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:34 am to DanTiger
LOL at the .40 cal downvoter.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:35 am to DanTiger
10mm BEATS EVERYTHING
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:41 am to KingRanch
I can't place a finger on it but I just don't like a .40....
I can't add to this thread other than that
I can't add to this thread other than that
This post was edited on 3/20/14 at 10:42 am
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:42 am to KingRanch
quote:
10mm BEATS EVERYTHING
10mm and 357 Mag are when the power levels start getting very impressive over 9, 40, and 45.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:53 am to DanTiger
I don't claim to be an expert on this topic.
But I can tell you this from some real world testing. The 9mm performs better when shooting through car panels.
But I can tell you this from some real world testing. The 9mm performs better when shooting through car panels.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:54 am to Who Me
quote:
But I can tell you this from some real world testing. The 9mm performs better when shooting through car panels.
I have shot both through cars and both performed equally.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 10:59 am to DanTiger
Actually
Now that I think about it, maybe it was the .40 that we were comparing the 9mm to when shooting the cars.
It's been a few years since we did that test.
Now that I think about it, maybe it was the .40 that we were comparing the 9mm to when shooting the cars.
It's been a few years since we did that test.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:02 am to Who Me
quote:
Now that I think about it, maybe it was the .40 that we were comparing the 9mm to when shooting the cars.
It's been a few years since we did that test.
We shot 9mm, .40, .45, 5.56, and .38s and they all blew through at least one door if not both doors. We did not collect the bullets after, that I recall, to see how what they looked like. There are, of course, a couple of places they won't blow through but I am not going to mention those on a public board.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:08 am to DanTiger
My agency hosted a ballistics seminar a while back and I can, without a doubt, tell you that i'll be carrying federal HST 9mm. It's some pretty sick stuff.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:09 am to DanTiger
357 SIG is always the answer.
To the question of which one is the loudest.
To the question of which one is the loudest.
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:15 am to Gaston
quote:
357 SIG
As stupid as the 40
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:20 am to bapple
quote:
An effective hollow point in 9, 40, or 45 that penetrates an acceptable depth should work well. I'm sure bullet designers take that into consideration when designing hollow points.
I agree with this statement but remember I am talking about having to penetrate something, an arm, before center mass. Lets assume the .45 and 9mm will be firing the same type of round. Remember that all of the tests, at least that I have seen, on bullet performance don't have the round striking a forearm bone first. Penetration is generally giving in inches and those are always measured from center mass entrance. I cannot blame the manufacturers for this as it makes the bullet performance sound better from a marketing stand point. Who would want to say "our bullet penetrates only 9" after passing though a forarm bone"? I am simply asking if you think slowing the bullet prior to a center mass strike will have more of an effect on a bullet that relies more on mass or velocity?
Posted on 3/20/14 at 11:24 am to DanTiger
quote:
mass or velocity?
I would go with velocity.
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