"Peace in our time" - 2014 version

quote:

---

Inexplicably, he believe that words have the same effect as actions and that he is dealing with rational actors. The dangers of a dilettante leader.

---

What's your alternative?

Perpetual sanctions while they still continue to build nuclear weapons? Another decade-long war in the Middle East?

This deal is a compromise like all negotiations are and it isn't perfect, but we come out stronger than we would if there were no deals at all.

quote:

---

Victory - Iran remains a non-nuclear power.

---

There are two ways that happens. One is through the negotiations that have taken place. We may not like that some sanctions are being lifted while their nuclear program is merely halted, but we can't expect a homerun just yet. Their nuclear program is their bargaining chip and they will not give it up for a mere $7B in sanctions relief. A final deal will hopefully come this year that will eliminate their nuclear program once and for all in exchange for welcoming them back as a normal state actor in the future.

The second option is through war. We have neither the will nor the resources to fund another long, drawn out war in the Middle East where the objectives are not clear and our security and sovereignty are not directly at stake. If we did, it would have happened already, or, at the very least, we would have supplied the Israelis with the technology they need to take out the nuclear sites. Between you and I, I don't think we even have such capability without putting troops on the ground in Iran, but that's beside the point.

Make no mistake... These are the only two options available. We've tried everything else. We've run intelligence operations. We've crippled their economy. Yet, their nuclear program continues to advance. They would not have suddenly given it up because big, bad Mitt Romney was elected last year.

quote:

---

I assume by your tone you're a Democrat.

---

If it's really pertinent to the discussion, I'm registered as an Independent.I've only been of voting age for about 8 years, but my votes are pretty evenly split among the parties. I voted for Romney in 2012, Obama in 2008. I also voted for Jindal twice, Charles Boustanny, and Mary Landrieu in Louisiana.

quote:

---

Democrats always tell us that we should use sanctions and isolate a country, and that war is rarely necessary.

---

I think both Republicans and Democrats can agree that the sanctions placed on Iran have, in fact, isolated them. Their economy is wrecked. Their oil tankers sit in the docks. Their leaders can not travel or bank in respected countries. Their average citizens are limited in where they can go and what they can do.

However, the sanctions have not caused the regime to open up or to slow their nuclear program. I also believe both Republicans and Democrats see war as an extension of political means to be used only in a last resort when the benefits outweigh the costs and the nation's security and direct interests are at stake.

At least they should.

quote:

---

So these negotiations are a feeble attempt by the West to sort of dictate the terms by which Iran enters the nuclear club?

---

No, it's keeping them out of the nuclear club. The agreement says they are not allowed to continue enriching uranium.

quote:

---

Isn't that exactly what Chamberlain, et al, sought with appeasement?

---

Chamberlain gave up the Sudetenland to avoid war. We are allowing $7B in sanctions relief to halt a country's nuclear program for the next 6 months, with further negotiations for a final deal already in the works. I believe you're smart enough to see the distinction between this deal with Iran and the Munich Agreement.

quote:

---

But your over-simplified statement of "Victory" is ridiculous, absurd and frankly, rather juvenile.

---

Very humbling coming from you. I have to rethink everything.

While we're on the subject - when did "victory" get taken off the table? When Truman fired MacArthur (I agree with the actual decision, but what led up to is was, seemingly, the end of American initiative - and by the guy who did the right thing by ending the war with Japan, decisively)? I may have to explore that decision as, perhaps, the result of criticism and/or second thoughts Truman had after ordering the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But that is a topic for a different time.

quote:

---

Have you not been paying attention for the last 50 years? ...or even the last 10?

---

Have you? Iran is an existential threat to the American way of life. No, they cannot directly threaten us today, but we are their enemy - I take them at their word. We can turn from this conflict in any way we wish - but in every direction there is a reckoning.

I know I'm not going to convince you WT, but we did not "invent" Iran as an enemy.

We bent over backwards to try to deal with them - they're unreasonable, dangerous, violent fanatics. They have sponsored terrorism on every continent. They want nuclear weapons so they can destroy Israel. There is no other conclusion I can draw.

When they get them - they will be off limits - like a mafia gangster. But will they view others with nuclear weapons as "off limits"? Of course not. They welcome the end of the world, at least on their terms, as part of their religious practices.

That's what I mean by existential threat - not "potential", not "perceived" - but actual, physical threat. Maybe not to our existence, but they are the most significant threat the world has faced since Nazi Germany.

quote:

---

to overthrow the popularly elected socialist government of Iran - and we did - we made Iran our enemy.

---

The Iranians had a lot to do with that, but somehow we get all the blame.

After two unnecessary wars, I vote we sit this one out.