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re: BOIL has become predictable

Posted on 7/28/14 at 12:54 pm to
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 12:54 pm to
How do I buy these futures again?
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 1:27 pm to
??? What ya asking Use The Force Be With You?
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 1:29 pm to
Lets say I wanted to purchase some of these winter futures..... Where do I find that action.
Posted by sneakytiger
Member since Oct 2007
2471 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 1:56 pm to
I think most brokers offer it as an additional service. Schwab's is through optionsxpress for example.
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 2:26 pm to
I trade through fidelity
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 2:51 pm to
Commodities futures and futures options require a commodity account. Don't mess around with futures contracts if this is your first time. It's highly leveraged. One natural gas contract controls 10,000 million British thermal units for delivery. They really don't deliver, or force delivery, but they will force upon you a warehouse receipt, or make you produce one, and either buy or produce the full payment for 10,000 million btu's upon expiration. It only requires $3,080 in initial margin to buy or sell a contract, and $2,800 to carry it overnight. But if the price declines .01, you need to come up with additional funds, aka a margin call.

Purchasing (options) calls, or call spreads on future's contracts is different. You've established a maximum possible loss, which is the cost of the option on the future's contract. You've purchased the right, but NOT the obligation to buy one future's contract at a specified price.

If you're talking about calls on UNG, BOIL etc, you can do this with your online securities broker. You need to fill out an application to be eligible to trade options.

Again in either (options) case above, buying a call, a call spread, a covered call, a put or a put spread has a maximum loss, which is the cost to enter the trade. If you're talking about selling the above uncovered, you really need to stay away from this until you know what you're doing.

I suspect you're talking about buying calls on Dec/Jan natty gas contracts at $4-$4.0. In that case, open a commodities account and buy the calls. Your maximum loss is limited to your cost. This is what I generally do the most frequently.

A spread is for example buying a Dec $4.00 call, and selling a Dec $4.50 call. Your loss is still limited, but so is your gain. If natty gas goes to $5, you need to produce a Dec futures contract at $4.50, but you have the right to buy one at $4.

Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/28/14 at 8:49 pm to
Use The Force Be With You - What are your thoughts on $4.50 natty gas by Dec? Jan?

Here's my thoughts. Buy to open Dec $4.50 calls for $880 and sell to open Dec $5 calls for $360. Net debit of $520 per trade. Also max loss. I'll explain max gain later. It is capped by virtue of selling the $5 call to help finance the purchase of the $4.50 call.

Same in Jan. Except the net debit per trade and max loss per is $710.

That's tonight's prices. I'm going to wait until at least next week as I expect NG to fall further.

Everything I read is that $4.50 gas is really the price for the foreseeable future as a benchmark. Due to the 5 year levels my logic is to use $4.50 as the in the money price point to trigger the profit.

I really thought hard about a call spread of $4.00/$4.50, but I think more aggressive is better given the current supply fundamentals.

Thoughts?
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/29/14 at 6:35 am to
Well given the fact that we are getting actual cold fronts early this has an opportunity to do two things; it could extend injection season and drop price further by getting storage to roughly 3600 almost to 5 year low avg benchmark..

I think what happens here is by October warming season will begin earlier...... This will cause ng traders to look at the bigger picture.....


Bigger picture is that another rough winter and we could potentially exhaust all storage..... Which is really want producers want......

I see no way if weather patterns Continue to trend cool how natural gas doesn't hit 5 dollars by Jan 1st and 7 by Feb.
This post was edited on 7/29/14 at 6:38 am
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/29/14 at 7:27 am to
Perfect. Thanks.
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/29/14 at 7:35 am to
This is really the first week I have no idea how things will go on Thursday. Projections are below:

LINK
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 8:38 am to
We are getting close. Cash dropped like a rock yesterday and futures are following this morning and all last night.

I'm undecided whether to go long today, or wait until after the report tomorrow morning, but I'll be going long soon.
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 8:39 am to
I wouldn't go long until this cold spell storage comes through........i.e two weeks.

It's been pleasant in the midwest.
Posted by rintintin
Life is Life
Member since Nov 2008
16155 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 8:45 am to
Force, do you still have a $57 price point for KOLD? It's awfully close.

How do you think it'll react to the injection report tomorrow?
Posted by sneakytiger
Member since Oct 2007
2471 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 9:48 am to
I'm a little embarrassed to ask, but why would fairly deep in the money calls on UNG be trading at a discount to those just in/out of the money? Looking at Jan 15 17.00 v 20.00. Is it just liquidity?
Posted by L S Usetheforce
Member since Jun 2004
22745 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 10:34 am to
Yeah...........I think tomorrow if we beat projections we could see 57.50.

I thinks 97 would make a big splash.
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 10:36 am
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 2:21 pm to
Calls closet to strike always carry the largest premiums. When you say selling at a discount could you give me an example of this and I'll try to explain as best I can. Five me the UNG month and strikes you're looking at.
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 2:29 pm to
User - Please see below as further explanation regarding maximum loss and maximum profit potential on the calls spreads I was talking about.

Jan. 27 Expirations
.178 4.50 Call Buy
.092 5.00 Call Sell
.086 Cost ($860) Max Risk
Maximum Profit: .414 ($4,140)

Dec 26th Expirations
.149 4.50 Call Buy
.069 5.00 Call Sell
.080 ($800) Max Risk
Maximum Profit: .492 ($4,920)

This was as of this morning. I'm not pulling the trigger yet, but will be by no later than Mid-August.

The long call spread on Dec and Jan contracts seems to set up nicely, and I think a $4.50 strike price is decent. What I anticipate will happen is that whatever I sell the $5 calls for will deteriorate in value after I sell them, and I will buy back at a lower premium and keep the $4.50 long calls to maximize gain per trade.

If the trade goes all to heck, what I've done by selling the $5's is lower my entry cost and maximum loss.

I think I'm also going to sell uncovered puts and collect premium. Margin is full futures contract margin, premium collected and some other percentage. Still if I sold both Dec and Jan $3.50 puts I'd collect $1,800 per trade. It would tie up capital (margin), but when you take it as a percentage return on capital over the short length of trade it seem attractive to me. NG would need to get awfully close to $3 to cost me money, and I can buy these back at a loss at any stop loss I choose.
This post was edited on 7/30/14 at 2:32 pm
Posted by sneakytiger
Member since Oct 2007
2471 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 3:28 pm to
Discount is probably the wrong term. The ask right now on UNG Jan 15 $17.00 calls is $4.35, vs. $2.25 for the $20.00 strike. So the break-even is lower for the $17 relative to the $20, at $21.35 vs. $22.25, respectively (assuming they are held to/near expy). I know this is an overly simple analysis and the answer lies somewhere in their extrinsic value.
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:03 pm to
Less risk equals higher premium. There is much less risk in a $20 call right now. Partially due to time decay and what the current price is.

But a lot of reasons outside this also. Not unimportant is market inefficiencies.

As a general rule options close to strike usually always carry a higher premium.
Posted by sneakytiger
Member since Oct 2007
2471 posts
Posted on 7/30/14 at 5:15 pm to
I thought that generally the deeper in the money an option, the less risky?
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