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Can the Monty defenders answer..
Posted on 11/14/13 at 11:54 pm
Posted on 11/14/13 at 11:54 pm
One simple question. everyone has been saying give it time or pointing out negatives. So to ye defenders, I challenge you to argue the counter point without making excuses. What is Monty doing RIGHT?
1
Posted on 11/15/13 at 12:02 am to ShamelessPel
quote:
to ye defenders, I challenge you
Judging by my username, what do you think I'm about to tell you?
Posted on 11/15/13 at 12:17 am to Spelt it rong
quote:
Judging by my username, what do you think I'm about to tell you?
That you spend obscene amounts of time on a message board correcting people for their spelling?
Yes, obviously I accidentally threw an "e" in there in place of an "ou".
Posted on 11/15/13 at 6:11 am to ShamelessPel
He certainly has been better at developing low lower level talent than the average coach, so at least top 15 in the NBA. Taking Davis out of the mix entirely, Smith, Belinelli, Aminu, Rivers are all significantly better than they were coming in to New Orleans, and none of those were givens. I might be leaving some off.
To me, the Monty rage is slightly misplaced. The staff needs to change, not necessarily Monty. They've had assistants move on to better jobs (higher rank), so they can get good talent, but they need to flip the staff some.
I don't need Monty to be the every situation x's o's guy, but he is clearly bottom half in the NBA there, at least in the in-game aspects. Bring in that guy, but he can replace another guy, in my opinion.
To me, the Monty rage is slightly misplaced. The staff needs to change, not necessarily Monty. They've had assistants move on to better jobs (higher rank), so they can get good talent, but they need to flip the staff some.
I don't need Monty to be the every situation x's o's guy, but he is clearly bottom half in the NBA there, at least in the in-game aspects. Bring in that guy, but he can replace another guy, in my opinion.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 6:42 am to 42
quote:
The staff needs to change, not necessarily Monty.
But he's shown zero inclination to do that. Individually I have no problem with Hanners and Ayers, but it just bugs me that so much of his staff is from his Larry Brown experience in Philly. It's not too shocking that they seem to be running into the same problems year in and year out when everyone is cut from the same cloth. Even the "new blood" they were supposedly looking at in summer league, Eric Snow, was a player on that Philly team. Rick Adelman's top longtime assistant Elston Turner was, maybe still is? on the market all this time we've had a coaching vacancy. I was kind of hopeful having Turner's son on the Summer League roster might be the foreshadowing of something but it wasn't.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:12 am to TigerinATL
quote:
But he's shown zero inclination to do that. Individually I have no problem with Hanners and Ayers, but it just bugs me that so much of his staff is from his Larry Brown experience in Philly. It's not too shocking that they seem to be running into the same problems year in and year out when everyone is cut from the same cloth. Even the "new blood" they were supposedly looking at in summer league, Eric Snow, was a player on that Philly team. Rick Adelman's top longtime assistant Elston Turner was, maybe still is? on the market all this time we've had a coaching vacancy. I was kind of hopeful having Turner's son on the Summer League roster might be the foreshadowing of something but it wasn't.
That is true, but is a separate issue.
First, he may not have the final say. Second, clearly his loyalty may be making a tough choice with someone on his staff, and if he fails to do so, that is one him squarely, but that not mean that the changes necessary can't be enforced from outside. Third, maybe the right guy isn't there for the role available, or maybe he is too picky.
I am just saying, not as an attacker or defender, that there are more options than are being discussed.
Monty may be best suited as a super amrk Jackson... Culture guy, big picture, with a Mike Malone type. That is my opinion. As such, I am more for a staff change before sacking him, I can see why people are upset.
I think this year may may his seat hot, but not lead to a dismissal unless someone egregious happens (e.g. 30 wins with a healthy Davis). Next season, all bets are off unless he makes the playoffs this season. Just my assessment today.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:31 am to 42
quote:
I think this year may may his seat hot, but not lead to a dismissal unless someone egregious happens (e.g. 30 wins with a healthy Davis). Next season, all bets are off unless he makes the playoffs this season. Just my assessment today.
I agree.
The biggest frustration for me is that the schemes haven't really changed. You make these huge moves for unconventional and repetitive players like Holiday and Evans and you try to plug them into an offense that typically features one guy dribbling and probing for most of the shot clock.
Or you watch Robin Lopez's slow feet repeatedly get abused in your PnR scheme and decide that the slightly less lumbering Jason Smith will do better 20+ feet away from the goal. Or you are among the top teams in the league in corner 3s allowed the previous 2 seasons and see no reason to tweak the system or the way you teach it.
If they knew they were going to run basically the same stuff, why not get players that fit the scheme? This roster needs imagination and invention. Its still early and perhaps the players aren't doing everything the coaches ask, but I am quite disappointed in the lack of innovation we've seen so far from the coaching staff.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:39 am to 42
quote:
Third, maybe the right guy isn't there for the role available
I think it's this because of
quote:
his loyalty may be making a tough choice with someone on his staff
Bringing in another Mike Malone or even an Elston Turner means either demoting or firing one of Ayers/Hanners. It's not like they're doing a bad job, but if coaching is a failing of this team, it's probably the only way to correct that and keep Monty.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:46 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Bringing in another Mike Malone or even an Elston Turner means either demoting or firing one of Ayers/Hanners. It's not like they're doing a bad job, but if coaching is a failing of this team, it's probably the only way to correct that and keep Monty.
Agreed 100%.
Monty is on the books for a while regardless and we have SOME outside validation of SOME of his talent. As such, I work with him through this season and into next unless we have a real disaster.
Yes, I know it feels bad now and we can look back at 157 non-Chris-Paul-on-the-roster games and see trends we don't like, which makes us focus on the wins less and the losses more because the `win process is the same (more of a loss process, really), and rightly so, but when you have a talent, you work with it (see: Gordon). So far, that is paying off. I'm in wait and see mode, but am open-minded and surprise with Gordon and Monty.
Both, however, do not have much leeway with me, for whatever that is worth.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:47 am to corndeaux
quote:
If they knew they were going to run basically the same stuff, why not get players that fit the scheme?
I think Dell has been in talent acquisition mode. His goal wasn't acquiring pieces that fit, it was acquiring pieces that can play now rather than in 3 years. And even as bad a year as Tyreke is having and being somewhat over paid, he's still very tradeable. He really is to this contract cycle what Iggy and Josh Smith were to the last contract cycle. Good players that are and probably always will be over paid. Both players were on the trading block for over half of their contract, and not in a "we have to get rid of him because he's killing our cap" way, but in a "he's our #1 but not good enough to be #1 so we need to cash him in for other parts" way.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:53 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I think Dell has been in talent acquisition mode. His goal wasn't acquiring pieces that fit, it was acquiring pieces that can play now rather than in 3 years. And even as bad a year as Tyreke is having and being somewhat over paid, he's still very tradeable. He really is to this contract cycle what Iggy and Josh Smith were to the last contract cycle. Good players that are and probably always will be over paid. Both players were on the trading block for over half of their contract, and not in a "we have to get rid of him because he's killing our cap" way, but in a "he's our #1 but not good enough to be #1 so we need to cash him in for other parts" way.
I think this is correct. I see all of those guys, and (slowly) increasingly Eric Gordon, as having value on the court and in trades.
As such, I have no problems. How they use the pieces, I may have problems with. Losing (this season) and not trading guys (over the summer) is will be upsetting. Right now, I don't see the roster as fixed at all.
I said in another thread, if they find a temporary Pippen (I spelled it wrong, so I'm self-harming in a message boardy way) for Davis, I'm good.
Long play.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 7:58 am to TigerinATL
I agree.
The capped out doom and gloom is silly. Evans has a decreasing contract over only 4 years. And he will play better. Joe Johnson was traded. Anyone can be traded.
This is true and is what is driving me nuts. How do you get play now guys, with defined strengths and weaknesses after 4 years and not tailor your systems to that talent?
Or just say “We're going after Holiday and then Evans this summer. If we add those two, how do they play along side of Gordon? What changes should we think about to help them fit?"
The capped out doom and gloom is silly. Evans has a decreasing contract over only 4 years. And he will play better. Joe Johnson was traded. Anyone can be traded.
quote:
it was acquiring pieces that can play now rather than in 3 years
This is true and is what is driving me nuts. How do you get play now guys, with defined strengths and weaknesses after 4 years and not tailor your systems to that talent?
Or just say “We're going after Holiday and then Evans this summer. If we add those two, how do they play along side of Gordon? What changes should we think about to help them fit?"
Posted on 11/15/13 at 8:03 am to 42
quote:
Pippin
Son of Charlemagne would be a nice pick up. Vocal leader
Posted on 11/15/13 at 8:05 am to corndeaux
quote:
How do you get play now guys, with defined strengths and weaknesses after 4 years and not tailor your systems to that talent?
Because as much as Monty is cited as a Pop guy, he's really a Larry Brown guy (Pop technically is a Larry Brown guy too). Larry Brown was giving Tyrus Thomas the Marcus Thornton treatment in Charlotte at the same time Monty was giving it to Marcus. I don't think the coaching staff is stupid or willfully ignorant, but most people tend to stick to their comfort zones and everyone being connected by Larry Brown in Philly may be limiting their comfort zones.
Also, as you've pointed out many times the offense isn't terrible, the problems really are on defense. BSS just ran an article LINK / saying that other than a significant increase in steals thanks to Holiday pressuring the ball, and blocks thanks to Davis getting better, this is the exact same defense with the exact same problems as the last few years. With the revolving roster that has to point to scheme. It's either ineffective or takes a long time to master.
This post was edited on 11/15/13 at 8:10 am
Posted on 11/15/13 at 8:10 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I don't think the coaching staff is stupid or willfully ignorant, but most people tend to stick to their comfort zones and everyone being connected by Larry Brown in Philly may be limiting their comfort zones.
Excellent point.
You think Demps and the FO are mostly hands off for on court things?
I just cant wrap my head around making these moves and not having an organizational push towards opening up the bag of tricks- especially with so many unorthodox teams as inspiration.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 8:13 am to TigerinATL
quote:
BSS just ran an article
That is a great article. Every Pelicans fan should read it.
Some good stuff I read yesterday on the Celtics defense (how its been effective) and BKs bad offense. Ill post them here later if anyone us interested
Posted on 11/15/13 at 8:26 am to corndeaux
quote:
You think Demps and the FO are mostly hands off for on court things?
Yes and no. They clearly talk, but if Demps' goal/mandate was to acquire young veterans, there really weren't many options available. Just like I think he resigned Gordon because he thought Gordon was a better use of that cap space than say OJ Mayo + Gortat, I think he felt Holiday/Evans were the best potential uses of the cap space the team had available. I think he had to be vetoed on the Lakers trade because he felt it gave the best value, and technically it did, it just wasn't a rebuild package which is what we needed.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 9:09 am to TigerinATL
I know you guys have seen me kicking and screaming for him to bring in an adelman disciple 
Turner would be that guy
Turner would be that guy
Posted on 11/15/13 at 9:20 am to TigerinATL
quote:
Just like I think he resigned Gordon because he thought Gordon was a better use of that cap space than say OJ Mayo + Gortat, I think he felt Holiday/Evans were the best potential uses of the cap space the team had available. I think he had to be vetoed on the Lakers trade because he felt it gave the best value, and technically it did, it just wasn't a rebuild package which is what we needed.
I agree. It's talent acquisition for later moves. If 2 of the 4 support guys are still on the team by the time Davis signs his extension, I'll be shocked.
Hopefully they find a way to pump up their value like they have with Vasquez, Lopez, Ayon, etc.
Posted on 11/15/13 at 9:34 am to TigerinATL
quote:
It's either ineffective or takes a long time to master.
Agreed. Both are on the coaches.
The teaching needs to adapt potentially.
As far as the roster moves go, I am a fan of churning through players, though not going forward at the rate that has been seen during the peak rebuilding (good then, not now).
What I'd like, ideally, is to get in two good candidates, let them compete, keep one, trade the other, rinse, repeat. Do that around Davis continually one position at time.
As far as fit goes, I know people talktalktalk about Ryno, but to me Evans is the real piece that is not delivering. Part of that is him, part of that may be the scheme / plays / goals. To me, he is the focus of the bench. Plunk him down in the best possible matchup for him for 15m a game, fit the pieces around him. Ryno is in a ton to add firepower, of course, but Evans is the one that will be getting to rim more and distributing when he can't . . . again, just my idea.
He should be made into a certifiable nightmare by midseason. He's got some Sacramento to get out of his system yet.
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