Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.” | Page 4 | TigerDroppings.com

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HortensePowdermaker
Grambling Fan
Member since Feb 2013
696 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

There is nuance here. Obama is supporting terrorists in order to destabilize the Middle East so we can get the puppet leaders we want in place instead of the leaders that we already have so we can isolate Iran and curb their nuclear program. The United States has always sided with one srongman over another in the Middle East. He just consistently picks the wrong guys and after a decade of fighting terrorism, his allegiances are baffling, to say the least.

He isn't supporting terrorists to attack the United States. No one thinks that and you created a straw man there. He is supporting terrorists to take down Assad. Egypt and Libya fit his utopian view of a people's movement in the Middle East and he was happy to work with terrorists to accomplish it. He thinks that will be better than Mubarak or Khaddafi.

The problem with Obama is that he is wrong about all of it, wrong about America, and wrong about the Middle East. His Utopian vision has blinded him to reality. Yes, he is supporting terrorists - even Al Quaeda. That is a fact. Is he doing it to hurt the United States? Not intentionally. But, the result will be the same in the long run because the goals of these people are not in the best interest of the US longterm.


This seems like a lot of verbiage coming from someone who is highly unlikely to have more than just a tiny fraction of the information that the president does.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13587 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


I get what you are saying. Anyone who says that Obama supports AQ is being ridiculous. Of course he doesn't.

But, here is the problem and it comes from Obama's muddled Middle East policy. There aren't just two sides. There aren't good guys and bad guys. There are bad guys, worse guys, really bad guys, state actors, terrorist groups, and then you have the regular people who are just trying to get to work and keep their heads low. I've been over there. I've sat with Palestinian shop keepers sweating and trembling after riots broke out and they just want to go to work and go home and keep their heads low.

But, there are a lot of bad guys over there. The problem with our president is that he seems unable to discern the actual situation. The ONLY way for their to be any stability in the Middle East is through dictators who rule their country with an iron fist, but are basically benevolent and want their people to be prosperous overall. King Abdullah of Jordan should be our model. He can be brutal, but he actually tries to provide a decent country for his people to live in.

The point that people are making is that Obama is suppoting groups that are in line with and riddled with AQ. He does this to acheive ends that benefit the U.S., but few of us believe it will work. We think that what will replace Assad will be worse than Assad. We think that Syria is about to fall into 20 years of lawlessness and civil war and that we will be drug in to keep the peace and keep it from being a bastion of lawlessness and terrorism.

America sees things in absolutes. The Middle East is a muddled mess. Obama likely sees the nuance, but he is naive just like Bush was. They think they can control this through "democracy" or "freedom" or being liked. They can't. He is picking the wrong side here.

Assad is a brutal dictator and Putin is a thug. I have no love for either of them. But, they can keep order and keep a government together that could potentially be dealt with - if we would do it well. The alternative is much, much worse.







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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120715 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

I get what you are saying. Anyone who says that Obama supports AQ is being ridiculous. Of course he doesn't.


Thank you

End of fricking story






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HortensePowdermaker
Grambling Fan
Member since Feb 2013
696 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

The point that people are making is that Obama is suppoting groups that are in line with and riddled with AQ. He does this to acheive ends that benefit the U.S., but few of us believe it will work. We think that what will replace Assad will be worse than Assad. We think that Syria is about to fall into 20 years of lawlessness and civil war and that we will be drug in to keep the peace and keep it from being a bastion of lawlessness and terrorism.


This is most certainly NOT the point of the majority of the people spouting on this topic.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13587 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

End of fricking story


Only if you want to be obtuse and simplistic, which one would only want if they were actively trying to reinforce their presuppositions.






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120715 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


My side on this isn't simplistic. I'm with you. It's pretty nuanced.

The simplistic side of this is the people that pin point one data point (i.e. that a subset of the rebels are AQ) and then immediately jump to the stupid simple conclusion that Obama is intently pro AQ and thus pro terrorism.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13587 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

This is most certainly NOT the point of the majority of the people spouting on this topic.


I don't know. I think that the powder keg is pretty obvious. Assad is sitting on top of it keeping it from blowing and there are about 50 fuses sticking out of it. We are trying to get rid of Assad, but we are helping light one of the fuses to do so. It just so happens that AQ is the match.

We are being terribly shortsighted here.

We need Assad and we have reached the point where hegemony isn't possible any longer without forcefully going in and creating regime change and annihilating all opposition. That is impossible too. So, we are weakened, but it is more by the reality of history than it is because Obama is just weak. He recognizes that we can't keep invading, but he wants to keep the same results. I don't think you can.

Perhaps it is the desired outcome that needs to change?






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Powerman
LSU Fan
Corpus Christi, TX
Member since Jan 2004
120715 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


Why do people keep acting as if 100% of the rebels are AQ?

I didn't know that Assad was such a benevolent leader that was only trying to squelch anti-American terrorism within his borders.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13587 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

Why do people keep acting as if 100% of the rebels are AQ? I didn't know that Assad was such a benevolent leader that was only trying to squelch anti-American terrorism within his borders.


Another straw man. Who said that?

The rebels are infiltrated with and have elements of AQ and Al Nusra.

Why do you keep acting like everyone else is stupid?

My point - try to grasp it - is that the rebels cannot be trusted. They are working alongside AQ and Al Nusra. Do we think they will suddenly expel them all as soon as they defeat Assad? Or, will these elements have control in a new Syria? Obviously, the latter.

Assad is a brutal dictator. He is no friend of the U.S. But, he is keeping order in Syria. He can be contained.

How has projected more terrorism internationally? Assad or AQ? Who is the greater threat to us? Assad or AQ?

The answer to those questions should inform you as to why people have a problem with siding with the Rebels. Now, you can disagree with their position, but treating them like they are idiots to have that opinion is a bit sad and hackish.






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AlaTiger
LSU Fan
Member since Aug 2006
13587 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


And, look. I am all for seeing Assad go. I really am. I would love to have Iran's leadership change to. I am simply saying that you can't get there from here, and even if you do, you are trusting in the ability of the United States to secure a leader/coalition in Syria that will be better and that will not be AQ influenced.

I just seriously doubt it will work out.

Iran is the head. Everything else is jousting at windmills.

The problem is that we cannot focus on Iran because AQ keeps fighting us all over the Middle East and we keep having to worry about them here. A real coup would be to dismantle AQ or coopt them to once again drop their war against us and wreak havoc on Iran and topple that regime. But, that won't happen because they hate us AND they hate Iran and right now, they are using us in Syria and attacking us elsewhere. We think we can control it, but we can't.

We have a better chance of turning Iran/Syria to our side than we do AQ.






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RCDfan1950
LSU Fan
United States
Member since Feb 2007
10955 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


Solution. Hold on to our powder (blood and treasure)...let Iran get their nuke...the Islamists will get cocky and take a shot at Israel...and that will be the end of the Islamic problem, and the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy of 'blood up the level of a horse's bit'.

Let whoever wants to clean up the mess have what's left of the oil. We've got ours now...not our problem.

Allen West can clean up our 'problem' too.







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cwill
New Orleans Saints Fan
Member since Jan 2005
25071 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


quote:

I would love to have Iran's leadership change to.


Why? Who cares?

quote:

I am simply saying that you can't get there from here, and even if you do, you are trusting in the ability of the United States to secure a leader/coalition in Syria that will be better and that will not be AQ influenced.


Whoever replaces Assad at whatever time, with or without our help, will not be a friend.

quote:

A real coup would be to dismantle AQ or coopt them to once again drop their war against us and wreak havoc on Iran and topple that regime.


Yeah, that would be a real coup...somehow dismantle a violent, extremist organization that has actually attacked us numerous times including on our own soil to fight an existential threat of the worst ally one could ever have. Brilliant.

quote:

We have a better chance of turning Iran/Syria to our side than we do AQ.


Israel says "No!"






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Interception
Providence Fan
Member since Nov 2008
11089 posts

re: Allen West: The Chinese have a proverb: “may you live in interesting times.”


I remember that line from the movie "Disclosure"

Obviously, Allen West is a Michael Douglas fan.






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