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Message
re: SI Offseason Grade: Pelicans...B-
Posted on 8/12/13 at 8:18 pm to brmark70816
Posted on 8/12/13 at 8:18 pm to brmark70816
quote:
Everyone on here can mock lottery picks, but they are the best value and the best way to build. If you would honestly say that you would rather a semi-proven vet in Evans making 12m a year over a lottery choice like McClemore making 4m a year
Give me the proven Evans over the unproven Mclemore any day of the week. Did you not see how terrible he was in the Summer League? He shot 33.3 percent and 3.6 turnovers a game. 19.4% from three. 19.4%. That's fricking atrocious. And that's not even mentioning the fact he is well below average on defense.
quote:
veryone on here can mock lottery picks, but they are the best value and the best way to build
Yep, because the building through the lottery sure has made the Trailblazers, Wizards, Bobcats, Raptors, Clippers, and Kings real great competitors over the years. Don't mention the Thunder and Spurs. They are outliers. They got lucky with their picks and struck gold multiple times.
quote:
. Lottery choices give you the flexibility to find star players and surround those stars with cheap salaries
We have our star player. We have now started to build around said star player.
quote:
. They have capped themselves out with 2nd tier players in the hope that Davis becomes a superstar very quickly.
So Jrue Holliday is a second tier player. I would like to hear your' list of top tier point guards.
1
Posted on 8/12/13 at 8:22 pm to brmark70816
quote:
If you would honestly say that you would rather a semi-proven vet in Evans making 12m a year over a lottery choice like McClemore making 4m a year, you are fooling yourself
That's a false comp though. They could have kept the pick and still picked up Evans. The question is would you rather Holiday or Noel + whomever the 2014 pick is. Is Holiday under his extension worth it? I think so, but that is a fair question.
quote:
The Pelicans are doing it in reverse. I'm just surprised more people on here don't see that.
It is known. Doesn't mean it won't or can't work.
They got a 23 yo proven pg locked up for 4 years on a market value contract for one mid lottery pick that might not even play this season and a 2014 first that is probably late lottery at best. Seems like a good value to me.
Posted on 8/12/13 at 8:47 pm to corndeaux
They don't know. They don't know that we will have a better 48 minute backcourt than the 72 lakers. They don't know that ryno will free up the offensive paint, and it will then be abused worse than a chinawoman in the second sino-japanese war. They don't know that anthony davis will be a more dominant paint presence than wilt.
I think the front office collected pieces based on fit and attitude as well as talent. The team should get along well.
I think the front office collected pieces based on fit and attitude as well as talent. The team should get along well.
This post was edited on 8/12/13 at 8:50 pm
Posted on 8/12/13 at 9:13 pm to brmark70816
The problem with lottery picks is that by the time they are good enough to make a run then you have to pick which ones to keep. Look at OKC, they are the gold standard. I don't know one person who thinks they are better now than they were at this time last year. You can't keep all your lottery picks if you hit on all of them.
We are gambling that we hit on our superstar and now we are surrounding him with talent who are ready to win much sooner than lottery picks. Jrue and Tyreke are players who have displayed elite level talent at times and they are both on long term, reasonable contracts. I think this way is one worth trying.
There are two huge wild cards in this equation. AD HAS to become a superstar for this to work. Plain and simple. Second, if EG is healthy and plays how he is capable then we have our elite scorer. We can be good with Tyreke starting at the two, but our greatest potential is if EG plays well. Finally, this group is locked in and can grow together. I, for one, am excited.
We are gambling that we hit on our superstar and now we are surrounding him with talent who are ready to win much sooner than lottery picks. Jrue and Tyreke are players who have displayed elite level talent at times and they are both on long term, reasonable contracts. I think this way is one worth trying.
There are two huge wild cards in this equation. AD HAS to become a superstar for this to work. Plain and simple. Second, if EG is healthy and plays how he is capable then we have our elite scorer. We can be good with Tyreke starting at the two, but our greatest potential is if EG plays well. Finally, this group is locked in and can grow together. I, for one, am excited.
Posted on 8/12/13 at 9:16 pm to ThePistol
Okc is the gold standard? 
Posted on 8/12/13 at 9:33 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Look at OKC, they are the gold standard. I don't know one person who thinks they are better now than they were at this time last year. You can't keep all your lottery picks if you hit on all of them.
Great point that no one really talks about. Everyone sucks the OKC model's dick, but they haven't won a title and, after losing Harden, won't necessarily ever be in better shape to win one than they were in 2011/12.
Posted on 8/12/13 at 9:51 pm to MrBlue105
OKC is the gold standard when it comes to building though the draft. I don't think anyone else is even close...
Posted on 8/12/13 at 9:59 pm to ThePistol
The lakers and spurs have done pretty well in the past. Okc hasn't won a title.
Posted on 8/12/13 at 10:09 pm to MrBlue105
I was talking strictly of building through the draft and the value of stocking lottery picks in long term success. Lakers didn't draft Kobe, Shaq, or Gasol. In fact, other than Bynum, who did they draft? Spurs drafted their current big three but Manu and Parker weren't lottery picks. They haven't had a single lottery pick since drafting Duncan. Every analyst talks about following the OKC model because they hit on 4 straight lottery picks.
Posted on 8/12/13 at 11:13 pm to ThePistol
Technically, the Lakers didn't draft Bryant, but according to Wikipedia, they told Charlotte who to draft as the trade was made before the draft.
Posted on 8/13/13 at 8:50 am to SaintEB
quote:
Technically, the Lakers didn't draft Bryant, but according to Wikipedia, they told Charlotte who to draft as the trade was made before the draft.
It was still a trade for Charlotte to get Divak.
Who have the Lakers ever drafted that was any good besides Bynum who they traded away? Mark "Maddog" Madson? Luke Walton?
Holy Crap! I just looked it up and the Lakers haven't had a first round pick since Javaris Crittenton in 2007. (They picked Toney Douglas in 2009 but sent it to NYK).
Posted on 8/13/13 at 9:15 am to SaintEB
Even if you concede Kobe as a draft pick, they didn't make it past the first round from 05-07 when all they had was Kobe. The Lakers have, and always will be, a team built through trades and free agency.
Posted on 8/13/13 at 9:55 am to ThePistol
quote:
The problem with lottery picks is that by the time they are good enough to make a run then you have to pick which ones to keep
Usually, championship teams have only one guy they drafted in the lottery. The rest of the team is acquired via FA or trades- obviously could be high lottery players. Is this because championship teams are usually from big/glamor markets or is it a larger statement on building through the draft?
quote:
I don't know one person who thinks they are better now than they were at this time last year.
This upcoming season is different, but they were arguably better last year without Harden than the year before with him. If Westbrook doesn't get hurt, they would have at least made SAS earn a trip to the Finals. They have a lot riding on Lamb being able to approximate Martin's production.
quote:
You can't keep all your lottery picks if you hit on all of them
True, but it's a problem I wouldn't mind having.
quote:
We are gambling that we hit on our superstar and now we are surrounding him with talent who are ready to win much sooner than lottery picks. Jrue and Tyreke are players who have displayed elite level talent at times and they are both on long term, reasonable contracts. I think this way is one worth trying.
There are two huge wild cards in this equation. AD HAS to become a superstar for this to work. Plain and simple. Second, if EG is healthy and plays how he is capable then we have our elite scorer. We can be good with Tyreke starting at the two, but our greatest potential is if EG plays well. Finally, this group is locked in and can grow together. I, for one, am excited
Posted on 8/13/13 at 11:57 am to ThePistol
quote:
Even if you concede Kobe as a draft pick, they didn't make it past the first round from 05-07 when all they had was Kobe. The Lakers have, and always will be, a team built through trades and free agency.
I can't disagree with that.
Posted on 8/13/13 at 1:24 pm to ThePistol
Heard of magic johnson, james worthy, marc gasol, jerry west, andrew bynum, kobe bryant, derek fisher, etc.?
They've surely drafted more talent than the supersonics/okc have. That's not countng territorial picks.
They've surely drafted more talent than the supersonics/okc have. That's not countng territorial picks.
Posted on 8/13/13 at 11:54 pm to BobBarker
quote:
Give me the proven Evans over the unproven Mclemore any day of the week. Did you not see how terrible he was in the Summer League? He shot 33.3 percent and 3.6 turnovers a game. 19.4% from three. 19.4%. That's fricking atrocious. And that's not even mentioning the fact he is well below average on defense.
It was summer league. Some guys look good and some look bad. But he got better as it went on and was one of the top 3 players by the end. He also has a reputation as a great defender, so not sure where you are getting that. Evans is a better player, no doubt, but he cost 3x more and will be playing off the bench. That doesn't make sense to everybody, like I guess it does to you.
quote:
Yep, because the building through the lottery sure has made the Trailblazers, Wizards, Bobcats, Raptors, Clippers, and Kings real great competitors over the years.
Some of those teams have been great at times as well. The Blazers had a monster team awhile back that they stacked through the draft and they are pretty good now. Chicago is a beast and almost all of their players are home grown. You have to be good everywhere (trades and FA), but the draft is the core. Or at least it should be.
quote:
We have our star player. We have now started to build around said star player
So you have to do it in one off season? They couldn't add players over the next couple of seasons and gradually got better? Give Davis time to mature and develop a game, instead of putting it all on the line his 2nd year.. that's just foolish to me.
quote:
So Jrue Holliday is a second tier player. I would like to hear your' list of top tier point guards.
How many tiers do you think there are? I'm thinking like 4 or 5, so 2nd is pretty good. I don't think he is in Paul's range, he is a step below and that is still good. He's a step above Vasquez, but I don't think he's 5x better than him (which is how much more he makes).
I have read and agree that you don't build through high pay mid level players (8-12m a year guys). You kill the cap. If you have a superstar you pay them, otherwise you stockpile guys on rookie contracts and mid-level exception type contracts (around 6m a year). Otherwise you have a bunch of medicore talent and will have a medicore team.
Posted on 8/14/13 at 7:21 am to brmark70816
quote:
But he got better as it went on and was one of the top 3 players by the end
That's a silly designation to begin with (Marco Belinelli, Anthony Randolph, Josh Selby, et al were all the best player in SL once upon a time) and also not true.
quote:
By the numbers, McLemore played horribly early in Las Vegas, then completely turned it around late once he got more comfortable. On the whole, 15.8 points and five rebounds per game is pretty impressive, and that 19-point third quarter against the Hawks in the Kings' finale was a sight to behold.
But did McLemore really play any better, or did he simply make more shots? I'm inclined to say the latter. Most of the scoring he did came in spurts and/or garbage time. Consider: He scored 22 points in the second half against the Raptors and 19 in the third quarter against the Hawks. That's 41 points in three quarters. In the other 17 quarters, McLemore scored a total of 38 points. That's a massive amount of inconsistency that has to be factored in when evaluating his overall performance.
Why was he so streaky? Because he spent the entire time seeking low-percentage jump shots. It was an out-of-body experience, to be honest. As one official from another team told me, if you never saw McLemore play in college, you'd think he was one of the worst gunners in the league. It's telling that McLemore didn't have a single assist -- not one! -- in any of the five games. Assists are an incomplete measure of playmaking, but I didn't see McLemore succeed with many dribble-drives during the tournament.
LINK
quote:
Some of those teams have been great at times as well. The Blazers had a monster team awhile back that they stacked through the draft and they are pretty good now. Chicago is a beast and almost all of their players are home grown. You have to be good everywhere (trades and FA), but the draft is the core. Or at least it should be.
Having picks in the draft is key, but that doesn't mean you have to use them strictly in the draft. It's about options and flexibility. You don't want to be too cavalier with moving picks (hello, NY) and tilt too much into the "every pick is a gamble" because that's why you pay your FO and your coaches- find and develop talent. But people right now are leaning to far in favor of the unquestioned value of a draft pick.
Debating Holiday's game and its value is fair. But they traded two mid to late lottery picks for a 23 yo who has proven himself to be a good player. He hasn't entered his prime yet!! If they had sent picks for an Iguodala S/T I would agree with your position. The team is young, locked up, and flexible on the court and on the cap sheet. It might not work, but it's not a franchise killer.
quote:
I have read and agree that you don't build through high pay mid level players (8-12m a year guys). You kill the cap. If you have a superstar you pay them, otherwise you stockpile guys on rookie contracts and mid-level exception type contracts (around 6m a year). Otherwise you have a bunch of medicore talent and will have a medicore team
Three things:
1. The Pelicans have not killed their cap.
Gordon, Holiday, Evans, Anderson account for ~ $42MIL this season. Parker, Duncan, Splitter, Ginobili accout for ~ $40MIL. Each team has a promising young player on a rookie contract and then various cheap role players. The Spurs have $52MIL on the books for next year, the Pelicans have $53MIL.
2. $8-12MIL should not be mediocre talent. Because a player may has flaws doesn't mean he isn't good. Plus if your FO is dumb in FA, why do you think they would do any better in the draft?
3. If every team in the league is deciding 1sts are more valuable than gold, how hard will it be to acquire them? No 1sts were moved at the trade deadline this past February. On the other side, if every team wants 1sts, how much can you get by selling them?
Posted on 8/14/13 at 7:34 am to brmark70816
quote:
. Everyone on here can mock lottery picks, but they are the best value and the best way to build.
they're also extremely volatile. that's why they are so cheap.
quote:
If you would honestly say that you would rather a semi-proven vet in Evans making 12m a year over a lottery choice like McClemore making 4m a year, you are fooling yourself.
i'll take evans at $11M knowing what he is over a rookie making $4M every time
Posted on 8/14/13 at 7:38 am to brmark70816
quote:
Give Davis time to mature and develop a game, instead of putting it all on the line his 2nd year..
are we expecting a title this year?
Posted on 8/14/13 at 8:02 am to brmark70816
quote:
Give Davis time to mature and develop a game, instead of putting it all on the line his 2nd year.. that's just foolish to me.
The thing you are missing is that the two guys we went out and got this offseason are both young. They have proven they can be very effective in this league and now they can grow with Davis, Gordon, and Anderson. This is why it is intriguing. I don't think any one of the players in our "core five" have maxed out their potential and now they have other young veterans to grow with.
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