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Message
re: My faith in Bitcoin just went out the window
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:03 pm to Vols&Shaft83
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:03 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
No it's not a Safe Secure store of value, as proven earlier with the multiple examples of fraud and hacking.
sigh. what am I doing wrong? why can't you people grasp the difference between third parties that deal in bitcoin and the bitcoin system itself?
quote:
For the moment, until nobody wants them anymore.
and when will that be?
quote:
Ok, so something costs more than it produces = Good???
WTF? Mining isn't a money losing venture. Many people make a profit. You may be mistaking warnings from pros to novices as meaning that it's not profitable at all. With the right amount of skills, knowledge and resources, it can be very profitable, much like most professions.
quote:
The concept is fine, Bitcoin is a con.
So what about bitcoin would need to be fixed in order for the next crypto-currency to gain your support?
1
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:37 pm to LSURussian
quote:Bitcoins are clearly not tangible property, so if they are property of any type they must be intangible property, or intellectual property. WikiTiger has argued that there should be no such thing as protection for intellectual property. Now he is advocating suing to protect bitcoins. No hypocrisy involved in that man's thinking.
You have said multiple times that someone who has his bitcoins stolen can sue. To do that bitcoins would have to be recognized as property.
By the way, where do you sue when your bitcoins are stolen? Where did the theft occur? Suppose the hacker went through servers in multiple countries with the last being say Venezuela, does Venezuela have jurisdiction?
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:41 pm to WikiTiger
OK, I'll bite. At a high level, I don't think it is a scam, I'm just not convinced it is worth fooling with. Major world currencies do just fine, especially in the really large amounts (multibillions) that are required for world-scale aggregation. With that in mind:
Assuming you are correct, why is this better than demand deposits in USD or Euros?
Right, but why bother?
To reiterate, I'm not claiming bitcoin is a scam. I'm claiming that I see no reason why I should use bitcoins as an alternative medium of exchange. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who will accept bitcoins, but I doubt they'd turn down US dollars.
So why is bitcoin *better*?
quote:
Its value is in its use as a safe, secure store of value, its transactional network, and its many qualities which combine the best features of both PM's and fiat
Assuming you are correct, why is this better than demand deposits in USD or Euros?
quote:
And even still, you can exchange into the dollar and pay all that if you so choose.
Right, but why bother?
To reiterate, I'm not claiming bitcoin is a scam. I'm claiming that I see no reason why I should use bitcoins as an alternative medium of exchange. Sure, there are plenty of people out there who will accept bitcoins, but I doubt they'd turn down US dollars.
So why is bitcoin *better*?
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:42 pm to Poodlebrain
on mobile now so can't type as much, but I don't even understand where you are coming from on this property angle. as far as I know, the theft of anything of value is a crime. are you arguing that stealing bitcoins wouldn't be a crime?
as far as international hacking incidents go, I'd imagine they'd be more difficult to pursue. still not seeing a point though
as far as international hacking incidents go, I'd imagine they'd be more difficult to pursue. still not seeing a point though
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:44 pm to foshizzle
foshizzle, I will reply to you tomorrow. I will also address poodles intellectual property comments
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:48 pm to WikiTiger
quote:
I don't even understand where you are coming from
quote:
still not seeing a point though
For someone who claims to be smart you sure don't understand plain logic very well.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:48 pm to WikiTiger
**Double Post**
This post was edited on 3/8/13 at 1:36 pm
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:51 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
the bitcoin has no value except for perceived value
same can be said of the dollar or the stock market.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 9:53 pm to LSURussian
holy frickstick batman! a bitcoin thread with wiki getting raped by logic!
like i have said before, the only legitimate function digital currencies will serve to the general public is as a medium of exchange between two real currencies
like i have said before, the only legitimate function digital currencies will serve to the general public is as a medium of exchange between two real currencies
Posted on 3/7/13 at 10:58 pm to BayouNation
quote:
A Bitcoin transaction services company says that hackers broke into one of its brokerage accounts last week, nabbing more than $12,000 worth of the digital currency.
So people risk jail time in order to steal $12,000 (real money value apparently) of electronic digits and your faith in it is out the window?
I would think the exact opposite should be the thought.
Posted on 3/7/13 at 10:59 pm to el duderino III
quote:
holy frickstick batman! a bitcoin thread with wiki getting raped by logic!
I wouldn't go that far. He said he will respond tomorrow and I'll wait for an answer.
quote:
the only legitimate function digital currencies will serve to the general public is as a medium of exchange between two real currencies
That's a major question I'm raising. Again, I do not claim bitcoins are a scam, but that they do not compete well against major currencies as a medium of exchange.
Maybe they will one day, or maybe not. I'm not a futurist.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 4:26 am to foshizzle
Posted on 3/8/13 at 5:50 am to Vols&Shaft83
Posted on 3/8/13 at 9:17 am to foshizzle
quote:
Assuming you are correct, why is this better than demand deposits in USD or Euros?
People typically prefer bitcoin because it is not inflationary.
For practical purposes, bitcoin excels over traditional currencies in quite a few ways:
-it can be stored safely without the need of a bank
-it can be transacted with extreme confidence anywhere in the world in approximately 1 hour* (don't traditional ACH's take about 4 days?)
-it can be used anonymously if proper steps are taken
-it is infinitely divisible
-bitcoins cannot be frozen or seized by any government or private actor
-there are no chargebacks in bitcoin
-transaction fees are zero or near zero (typically less than a US penny)
-it knows nor respects any political borders (i.e. border crossings with large amounts of bitcoins can be done with ease and without any government even knowing)
*1 hour is the minimum for a high level of confidence (i.e 6 confirmations), however, if you trust the party sending you bitcoins, then the transaction is instant.
quote:
Right, but why bother?
Because eventually it will be easier to just use bitcoin. Right now it isn't.
quote:
I'm claiming that I see no reason why I should use bitcoins as an alternative medium of exchange.
Right now there is no compelling reason for average joe's to use bitcoin, just as in 1993 there was no reason for the average joe to use the internet. But things change. Technology grows. Adoption grows.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 9:42 am to WikiTiger
quote:
People typically prefer bitcoin because it is not inflationary.
Right. So right now people are doing it legally as an investment not as a true currency.
Posted on 3/8/13 at 9:56 am to WikiTiger
My responses to your "advantages" are shown below in parenthesis and in bold italics.
Few, if any, of the "bitcoins excels" on your list are of any substance.
Bitcoins is innovative in its ponzi scheme attempt but it's still a ponzi scheme. The first ones in will make money. Those who follow will lose everything at some point in the future.
The reason you like bitcoins is because it is technology based since you fancy yourself as a supreme techie nerd.
quote:
People typically prefer bitcoin because it is not inflationary. (It WILL be inflationary as soon as the bitcoin value collapses. In fact, it will be Zimbabwe-like inflationary at that point. Bitcoins have already been inflationary twice in its short existence when fraud caused bitcoin users to panic and cash out, to the point where bitcoins became valued at a fraction of their pre-fraud value.)
quote:
bitcoin excels over traditional currencies in quite a few ways:
-it can be stored safely without the need of a bank (Cash can be safely stored without a bank. And why is not using a bank an advantage? Bitcoins actually uses a bank, 3rd party storers of the digits. You just don't want to recognize those 3rd parties as banks.)
-it can be transacted with extreme confidence anywhere in the world in approximately 1 hour* (Debit or credit card transactions can be transacted anywhere in the world in seconds. And if the seller does not deliver, you can get your money back which you can't do with bitcoins.)(don't traditional ACH's take about 4 days?) (No, next business day availability of funds for ACH transactions is the most common.)
-it can be used anonymously if proper steps are taken (You can do the same with cash. This "anonymity" advantage shows the paranoia basis for bitcoin users. And you've never explained how anyone can receive goods from a seller without giving some type of address for the purchaser for the goods to be delivered to. So how is that "anonymous" for the purchaser?)
-it is infinitely divisible (So what?!?!? Do you think it's an advantage to buy something with .0036574511039736289768542746389263836554836 units?!?)
-bitcoins cannot be frozen or seized by any government or private actor (This is an opinion, not a fact. It has not been tested yet.)
-there are no chargebacks in bitcoin (This is a huge DISADVANTAGE to the purchaser using bitcoins. If the seller defrauds the purchaser there is no recourse outside of trying to locate the seller (anonymous, remember?) and taking him to court.)
-transaction fees are zero or near zero (typically less than a US penny) (There are no transaction fees for cash transactions and very low or NO transaction fees for most purchasers using credit or debit cards.)
-it knows nor respects any political borders (i.e. border crossings with large amounts of bitcoins can be done with ease and without any government even knowing) (And who does this really affect? Does it affect the average, honest person? Or does is it really only important to the drug dealers or other criminals (or wannabe criminals) or to the terminally paranoid schizo's in the world?)
Few, if any, of the "bitcoins excels" on your list are of any substance.
Bitcoins is innovative in its ponzi scheme attempt but it's still a ponzi scheme. The first ones in will make money. Those who follow will lose everything at some point in the future.
The reason you like bitcoins is because it is technology based since you fancy yourself as a supreme techie nerd.
This post was edited on 3/8/13 at 9:58 am
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:09 am to LSURussian
I agree with Russian, even though he clearly doesn't understand cryptography 
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:11 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:Are you kidding? I helped break the German "Enigma" code.....
even though he clearly doesn't understand cryptography
ETA: Plus, I learned to read and write Russian (Cyrillic) without ever taking a lesson. If that isn't cryptography I don't know what is!
This post was edited on 3/8/13 at 10:27 am
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:22 am to LSURussian
So I really need a verdict here. Where do I put my money? Dinars or Bitcoins?
Posted on 3/8/13 at 10:25 am to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Vols&Shaft83
I make an effort to answer all of your questions, and I would appreciate it if you answered mine.
Earlier you said that the concept of a crypto-currency is fine but that you think bitcoin is a con.
To which I asked: So what about bitcoin would need to be fixed in order for the next crypto-currency to gain your support?
What is your answer to that?
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