Top 10 Presidents | Page 5 | TigerDroppings.com

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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington
Member since Oct 2009
16438 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

invent? that's laughable. Hold up your imperial president champ.


I noticed the slightly imprecise way you phrased your little question and thought it worth it to make the quip. The fact is that the preservation of the institution of slavery was the primary impetus for southern secession and the primary cause of the war. Lincoln hated the institution, but he did not prosecute the war to effect abolition. He did it to preserve the union pursuant to his constitutional responsibilities. At some point, however, he did come to reason that the Union could not "endure half slave and half free" and saw abolition as a necessary step toward ensuring the Union of the states in perpetuity.

No dumbass 30-year-old confederate bull shite that you can hatch can change any of that. Try reading a few articles of secession or really any primary source document.



This post was edited on 2/18 at 10:42 am


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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Aurora, CO
Member since Nov 2009
25034 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

I don't understand the FDR love. His programs are going to cripple this country within the next few decades.


FDR may have laid the groundwork for a lot of these programs but he never intended for them to get as big as they did. It wasn't until LBJ and The Great Society that you saw these social welfare programs being mutated into something more than what they were intended.

And it's not like these programs were the only things FDR was responsible for. I mean....he did lead us through what was perhaps the darkest time in human history (World War II).







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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
39771 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

I noticed the slightly imprecise way you phrased your little question and thought it worth it to make the quip.


you said it was the primary reason. Such a claim is wrong. hence why it isnt worth debating you on this topic. Abolition was NOT the primary reason for the civil war. It was A reason, yes, but not primary as you agreed to.






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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
39771 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Try reading a few articles of secession or really any primary source document.


I have. The fact remains that the abolition movement was one of a multitude of reasons cited by any primary source document...including Lincoln's own writings.

Interestingly I assumed that a college educated individual would have a better grasp of the multitude of reasons which led to the civil war, and those reasons which were of higher point than slavery. Instead claiming slavery as the primary motive just like some average HS history class...sad.






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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington
Member since Oct 2009
16438 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

you said it was the primary reason. Such a claim is wrong. hence why it isnt worth debating you on this topic. Abolition was NOT the primary reason for the civil war. It was A reason, yes, but not primary as you agreed to.


I know you're busy cooking stats, so I'll keep this simple.

The South seceded and started the war primarily due to the fear that "anti-slavery" powers in the north were about to make a move on slavery. Their primary (yes, primary) cause was the preservation of slavery--at the very least in the slave states. There were many who wanted to expand it into the free states under "Full faith and credit".

So let's review:

1. The South's primary cause was the preservation of slavery. If wrapping that in a bunch of language about "our economy and "our way of life" tickles you, feel free to substitute it. We'll just agree that we know what they were talking about.

2. The South initiated hostilities

3. Therefore, the war was fought over the issue of slavery. I don't think it especially important that abolition was a secondary concern of Abraham Lincoln until the last couple of years of the war. Abolition was an inevitable consequence of the Northern victory.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Aurora, CO
Member since Nov 2009
25034 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

The fact remains that the abolition movement was one of a multitude of reasons cited by any primary source document...including Lincoln's own writings.



You're turning words around to suit your own argument. The Confederacy was not some last bastion of constitutionality that was defending itself from imperialism. They were fighting to keep their institutions - namely slavery - intact. But modern neo-Confederates and radical libertarians such as yourself often gloss over that fact and instead focus on the "tyrannical" nature of Abraham Lincoln.

Bottom line is this: the country was tearing itself apart at the seams. In a national emergency such as that, I fully understand when a president takes such large steps to fulfill his oath to preserve the Constitution and keep the country united.







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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
39771 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

1. The South's primary cause was the preservation of slavery.


really? Can you show me a link in their documentation on secession that claims their highest priority was the salvation of slavery?

quote:

The South seceded and started the war primarily due to the fear that "anti-slavery" powers in the north were about to make a move on slavery.


good god.

quote:

2. The South initiated hostilities

3. Therefore, the war was fought over the issue of slavery.


whatever unlinked, un-documented little history you want to claim is fine with me champ. I have read the documents. Feel free to post whatever version you want.






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CptBengal
USA Fan
BR Baby
Member since Dec 2007
39771 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

The Confederacy was not some last bastion of constitutionality


I never claimed they were.

quote:

that was defending itself from imperialism.


Do you deny Lincoln was an extremely imperial president?

quote:

They were fighting to keep their institutions - namely slavery - intact.


slavery was one such institution. But the issue was actually a centralized or de-centralized authority ruling on what was "legal". Interestingly, I think most of these "extreme linertarians" as you call them have it wrong, in that at the time of the civil war it was the Northern States that were exercising States Rights to abolish slavery....and it was the Southern states clinging to a centralized view. Their issue was that other states were attempting to influence THEIR state policy.

Slavery may have been the battle topic...but central, versus decentralized governmental power was clearly the struggle. Abolition only came about well after the war had begun, and Lincoln even wrote in the Emancipation proclamation that it was those states in rebellion were slaves were freed. Thatis an obvious military move to weaken the support structure during wartime.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Aurora, CO
Member since Nov 2009
25034 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Do you deny Lincoln was an extremely imperial president?


Yes I do. But if you are going to call Lincoln an imperialistic president then you might as well do the same for Davis because he violated the Confederate constitution just as much as Lincoln violated the U.S. constitution during the Civil War.

But you know what? I give Lincoln a pass because of the circumstances involved. Had Lincoln decided to keep his presidential powers within the limits established by our constitution the map of North America would look vastly different today. It would more resemble the map of Europe with many different countries using many different forms of government.

Sometimes extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. I know it's hard for you to fathom but sometimes things aren't as simple as they may appear. These weren't black and white issues.


quote:

Abolition only came about well after the war had begun, and Lincoln even wrote in the Emancipation proclamation that it was those states in rebellion were slaves were freed. Thatis an obvious military move to weaken the support structure during wartime.


All of this is fine and dandy but that still doesn't change the fact the South was fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. Even if the Northern political machine didn't bring slavery into the crosshairs until the middle part of the war, the South had the preservation of slavery as its main aim long before Fort Sumter was ever even fired upon.







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Navytiger74
LSU Fan
Washington
Member since Oct 2009
16438 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Slavery may have been the battle topic


The Civil War was fought over slavery. If you want to say it was fought over "states' rights", fine: states' rights to maintain slavery. Federal power? Okay. Federal power to encroach upon the "property" rights of southerners--and we're not talking about their carriages or homes. Everything available to us lays this out pretty plainly. Look it up.

Why people feel the need to overthink, overcook, or overdetermine this one is beyond me. I mean, really. You only make yourself seem silly--at best.






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TheOcean
Florida State Fan
Member since Aug 2004
30544 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Navytiger74


Don't waste your time.






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Interception
Providence Fan
Member since Nov 2008
11089 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Do you deny Lincoln was an extremely imperial president?


Thank God

What would you have Lincoln do? Allow the south to succeed? How long do you believe slavery would have lasted or would it still be around today? Do you believe integration would have happened in the south? Do you agree with the Feds forcing southern colleges to admit black students or is that oppressive to the south?




This post was edited on 2/18 at 11:49 am


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oauron
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Sep 2011
9284 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:


ETA: Jackson has long been my favorite president despite that my own beliefs are frequently at odd with some of his actions.




Jackson is a prime candidate for worst president of all time. Trail of Tears.






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RollTide1987
Alabama Fan
Aurora, CO
Member since Nov 2009
25034 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


quote:

Jackson is a prime candidate for worst president of all time. Trail of Tears.


Not such a bad move in hindsight. Their casinos are pretty decent and bring the joys of Vegas to an awful lot of people.







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Roaad
LSU Fan
Bushrod Owns
Member since Aug 2006
52478 posts

re: Top 10 Presidents


I am going to eviscerate the Lincoln apologetic stated earlier when I get near a PC

And to answer Bengal and the Bama poster: every document of secession that lists specific reasons specifies slavery as the leading cause. For those that don't you can refer to the letters of the framers, and even the announcement speeches. . .all of which I've posted previously. The evidence, from the mouths and pens of those who drafted an passed the state secessions obliterate even the most stubborn argument that slavery was not the overwhelming reason for secession.






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