The President's Commision on Global Warming | Page 6 | TigerDroppings.com

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kingbob
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St. Amant, LA
Member since Nov 2010
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


If only we put 1% as much effort into fixing coastal erosion as we have into studying and fixing "global warming" as a species, we would have saved coastal Louisiana 15 years ago, and Katrina may have never busted New Orleans's levies.





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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

this is a pathetic debate technique. Nobody disagrees the earth is warmed fron the atmosphere. nobody disgrees ghe earths mean temperature varies through temporal scales of varying degree.

by attempting to frame a specific and poignant topic in terms of broader comments which are indisputable, you are attempting to then claim some false "consensus".

I am not asking the question as a debate technique. I sincerely would like for someone to explain exactly how the atmosphere warms the planet, so that I can better understand your reason for believing that our contribution to CO2 levels has no (or minimal) effect on the climate. It is my understanding that "greenhouse gasses" work by absorbing infrared radiation emitted from the earth's surface, and radiating a portion of it back toward the earth. I think of it like a valve that impedes the flow of radiation out into space, and in order to balance this "radiation budget" against what the sun puts in, the earth's temperature has to rise to increase the rate that radiation flows back out into space.






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Zach
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Member since May 2005
64420 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


The key greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is water vapor. But environmentalists can't link human activity to water vapor. So, they use CO2.





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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


understand your reason for believing that our contribution to CO2 levels has no (or minimal) effect on the climate.

because the molecule doesnt have the prooerties necessary to make it a driver of tempersture based on its concentrsations. these are physical properties and not up for debate...open a chemistry book and learn about them.

kets do an exercise.
1) list the greenhouse gases in our atmisphere un irder of concentration. make a bar graph for added visual effect.

2) list the greenhouse gases in our atmosphere in order of heat capacity, again, make a bar grsph fir sdded vusual effect.

3) after posting that, tell me why co2 is the focys of agw.






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TrueTiger
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Member since Sep 2004
10626 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

But environmentalists can't link human activity to water vapor. So, they use CO2.



Politics and science don't mix well.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

Do you understand the relationship of temperature to gas in liquid solution?

Yep, solubility decreases as temperature increases. As temperature rises, the oceans release more CO2. You believe that, if CO2 were an effective greenhouse gas, warm periods in the past would have spiraled out of control. My argument is that in the past, warming has happened more slowly, and vegetation and other factors had time to strike a natural balance to "correct" this problem.






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NC_Tigah
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Member since Sep 2003
52755 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

I sincerely would like for someone to explain exactly how the atmosphere warms the planet
It is water dependent and fairly complicated due to water vapor's unique properties. E.g. Water Vapor concentrates almost entirely in the troposphere whereas other gases are more equally distributed throughout the homosphere. Likewise, cloud formation impacts differently than other gases.


CO2 is not a significant contributor.
Were it a significant contributor, as it heated the atmosphere, it would heat the oceans. As those oceans it heated released more CO2 IAW the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, more CO2 would enter the atmosphere causing temperature to further rise . . . and so forth.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

because the molecule doesnt have the prooerties necessary to make it a driver of tempersture based on its concentrsations. these are physical properties and not up for debate...open a chemistry book and learn about them.

kets do an exercise.
1) list the greenhouse gases in our atmisphere un irder of concentration. make a bar graph for added visual effect.

2) list the greenhouse gases in our atmosphere in order of heat capacity, again, make a bar grsph fir sdded vusual effect.


While I work on the visual effects, you check out the wavelengths that water vapor do not absorb, and instead allow a great deal of the infrared spectrum to radiate unimpeded into space. And then compare that to the spectrum that CO2 absorbs, and see how much of the water vapor "window" it closes. After that we can argue over the concentrations required of each to have a given effect on the temperature.
quote:

3) after posting that, tell me why co2 is the focys of agw.

Because it is the factor that we are a major contributor too.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
52755 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

My argument is that in the past, warming has happened more slowly, and vegetation and other factors had time to strike a natural balance to "correct" this problem.
Atmospheric oxygen has not behaved in a way to support that presumption.






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
52755 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

after posting that, tell me why co2 is the focys of agw.

Because it is the factor that we are a major contributor too.
That's the issue in a nutshell. We are treating a correlate assuming it is a cause. It isn't.






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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

you check out the wavelengths that water vapor do not absorb, and instead allow a great deal of the infrared spectrum to radiate unimpeded into space. And then compare that to the spectrum that CO2 absorbs, and see how much of the water vapor "window" it closes. After that we can argue over the concentrations required of each to have a given effect on the temperature.


actually it depends on the concentration of the water vapor, as the scattering of the infrared wavelebgths, etc. moreover, there are more tha 2 greenhiuse gases. please do the exercise, then we can talk about the numbers....


but is that factor a significant factor. if it isnt, it doesnt matter. do the exercuse, abd we can discuss the signifigance in relation to other factors. also, we produce lots of water vapor...but it is much tougher to tax.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

CO2 is not a significant contributor.
Were it a significant contributor, as it heated the atmosphere, it would heat the oceans. As those oceans it heated released more CO2 IAW the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, more CO2 would enter the atmosphere causing temperature to further rise . . . and so forth.

How can you just ignore the rest of the system, specifically the parts where CO2 is removed from the atmosphere, and how as CO2 levels increase, the processes that remove it also speed up? The overall effect is that CO2 levels remain in a relatively stable range, right? It's never more than a trace gas.

How can you be so sure that CO2 levels won't outpace the removal processes if we accelerate the increase by 1%? 10%? 100%?






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

quote:

My argument is that in the past, warming has happened more slowly, and vegetation and other factors had time to strike a natural balance to "correct" this problem.

Atmospheric oxygen has not behaved in a way to support that presumption.

How do we measure atmospheric oxygen in the past? Because the other guy's whole argument was that ice cores and tree rings were not reliable gauges for atmospheric composition.






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doubleb
LSU Fan
Baton Rouge
Member since Aug 2006
6668 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


Some simple questions and observations:

1) Has the Earth been hotter than it is now?

2) Has the sea levels been a lot higher than they are Now?

3) If the answer to question 1 or 2 is "yes" then when and how often?

4) Is the Earth 'perfect" right now? If man had the ability should we "lock" in today's climate and thus keep things exactly like they are?

As man studies mthe Earth, its climate, its oceans and its atmosphere; I believe we need to consider the fact that the Earth is going to change, we are going to have some kind of impact, and we are going to have to adjust to changes our go extint.

I don't think these changes are going to come overnite, but they are going to come no matter what man does.

Listening to people like Gore, Pelosi, and others to save the planet is foolish because it is obvious they want power,and control, and that they will say or do anything to get that.

And unfortunately too, science like a lot of journalist have agendas. They need money to do their research. They prosper when they study "problems". I think they share the blame here too.







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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

please do the exercise, then we can talk about the numbers....

I have done the exercise (save for the visual aids), and I know where you are going. There is somewhere in the range of 20-100 times as much water vapor in the air as carbon dioxide. Water vapor also has in the neighborhood of twice the heat capacity of carbon dioxide, I think. This is intended to show how insignificant CO2 is as a contributor to warming.

The concentrations of all gases are kept relatively stable through natural cycles, right? Why aren't CO2 levels naturally twice as high? Or ten times as high? Who knows the long term effects of doubling CO2 overnight, geologically speaking? Would it cause far-reaching problems that would overwhelm and destroy the processes that keep it in check? I don't know, do you? Is it not worth studying, worrying about, and *gasp* investing in?






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
52755 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

Because the other guy's whole argument was that ice cores and tree rings were not reliable gauges for atmospheric composition.
Don't know which "other guy" you're referencing. Most assuredly though, tree rings suck as temperature parallels. Trees grow very well in cool wet conditions. They grow well in warm wet conditions. They grow poorly in hot droughts.

Ice cores seem to me a reasonable measurement, if performed meticulously. Again, O2 levels in those samples do not support your organic rebalancing of CO2 presumptions.






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CptBengal
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re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

I have done the exercise (save for the visual aids), and I know where you are going


no you dont. there are more than 2 greenhouse gasses. please do the exercise so we can talk about it. until you recognize ghe overall relationship of all the gasses...you are ignoring the entire system.






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Korkstand
LSU Fan
Plaquemine, LA
Member since Nov 2003
9913 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

Again, O2 levels in those samples do not support your organic rebalancing of CO2 presumptions.
How is this determined?






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NC_Tigah
LSU Fan
Member since Sep 2003
52755 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

How is this determined?
What?






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RogerTheShrubber
LSU Fan
Juneau, AK
Member since Jan 2009
91999 posts

re: The President's Commision on Global Warming


quote:

If only we put 1% as much effort into fixing coastal erosion as we have into studying and fixing "global warming" as a species, we would have saved coastal Louisiana 15 years ago, and Katrina may have never busted New Orleans's levies.


We spent a fortune of your hard earned federal tax dollars on this around here only to find out Alaska has been cooling since 2000. By 2-3 degrees in some locations.






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