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Started By
Message
re: when do we start blaming the coaching staff? If we don't improve next year?
Posted on 1/26/13 at 9:58 pm to GynoSandberg
Posted on 1/26/13 at 9:58 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Smith has gotten better.
Where has Aminu and Vazquez gotten better at? They have logged more minutes and accumulated numbers, sure, but where have they actually improved? This is their first season playing extended minutes.
I'm sincerely asking.. Where have they improved?
Fair question.
Let's ignore the stuff that changes in large part due to minutes.
Vasquez hovers around 10th in the NBA in AST%/TOV% among players who play at least 30 minutes per game. To be clear, I'm using minutes played as a filter to knock out guys who play spot minutes in garbage time and the like. Those percentages are quite good. He wasn't always that good at passing. In fact his AST% has increased each year and the TOV% has decreased each year.
Again, one knock on Vasquez is his turnovers, but those increase with minutes, as well. When you normalize out the time, dude's improving.
As noted above, is that Monty, is that him, etc. . . . . all fair questions. But when you look at the number of people who improve rather than bust compared to players who came in and regressed before and looking around at other teams, I think each little plank makes a case for Monty being at least average in this dept.
Again, not saying you disagreed with that, just kind of recapping for people who aren't reading the whole thread.
With Aminu, looking at time-normalized numbers, we see his PER up each year (a big leap this year and year 2 seems to be when thing `kick in' for Monty's guys), as is WS/48. FG%, eFG%, and TS% are up this year, but was slightly down last year from that before. TRB% has steadily increased, same with AST% and STL%. TOV% has increased each season slightly and FT% has ticked downward from 77% to 74%, so it's not like he's just up and up and away.
With the eyes, he's making fewer mistakes (but boy are his mistakes shiny when he makes them). He's clearly using his athleticism more, and his rebounding is not as `quiet' as it was. Perhaps the best thing is that he has a niche. Creating the turnover and going on the break or doing some slashes where he dunks or only has single dribble before going up. Finding that role is key. Note the huge drop in his three-point attempts since coming here.
All in all, is he some great player . . . no. Has he gotten better? Yes.
Thoughts?
2
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:01 pm to GynoSandberg
your original question was "where did they improve?" ... i showed you a bunch of numbers that went up from year to year. they improved in numerous statistical categories.
and then you laughed at me...and showed me basically the same thing that i showed you and say it proved your point.
eta: i have no idea what the hell just happened
and then you laughed at me...and showed me basically the same thing that i showed you and say it proved your point.
eta: i have no idea what the hell just happened
This post was edited on 1/26/13 at 10:14 pm
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:12 pm to 42
quote:
Thoughts?
You and Gyno are both right, I think.
Monty isnt a miracle worker, but as Gyno said, a head coach has certain roles.
Putting players in position to succeed and giving them the confidence to achieve that success is the coach's primary job.
Overall, I think Monty has done a good job of putting young players in situations to play to their strengths.
Aminu, Vasquez, Smith all have roles that fit what their skills are. Some of their improvement goes to more minutes/experience, some of it should go to Monty for getting these guys to buy into his vision of who they are.
I think its fair to wonder if some of these guys develop the same under a different coach.
How many young players did we see Byron develop? Again some of that was his refusal to give them minutes, but he also didnt get young guys to buy in.
Monty probably gets too much credit for a natural progression of players, but he is at the very least deserving of some credit for creating an environment that allows these guys to grow.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:13 pm to quail man
You answered the question quite literal. Yes, they got "better". A few percentage points here and there, maybe a point or two. Give or take, that's to be expected. Didnt realize we were being that dense.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:14 pm to corndeaux
quote:
corndeaux
Best post in this thread. Couldn't agree more with what you said.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:16 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
A few percentage points here and there
Aminu's shooting percentage has jumped 8 percent in the last year...11 percent since he's gotten here. that's no small thing. his PER, which i cant remember if you support or not, is up from 10 to 13. also no small thing. i'm not just looking at points and board. i'm looking at efficiency.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:22 pm to tehchampion140
quote:
Best post in this thread. Couldn't agree more with what you said.
Very good points. I think most agree with the generalities, but it's good to dig into the numbers now and again and talk specifics rather get all high or low based on a recent game or streak.
My point has never been that Monty is great, but that he's likely good at this one thing (at least). I think the roles thing is fair, but the head coach sets the plan and the assistants execute it to the best of their ability, then advise Monty based on what they learn. It's a team, but I think in many cases "Monty" means "Monty and his staff." Beyond that, we've seen Monty get hands on with players and talk about specific things he works on with players. I think Monty is more hands on with his young players than the typical head coach.
But, yes, Monty is doing some good work here. I think he does need to make some changes on his staff though. Said that for a while. I'm not sure if the lack of changes is me being absolutely wrong, Monty not agreeing, or the market not allowing an upgrade.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:27 pm to 42
He'll learn a lot of stuff as he gets more coaching experience. Can't expect him to be perfect with how young he is. He does seem to do very well with getting young players to find their niche and produce, as both the numbers and just watching the games suggest. It's so much better than what we had with Scott.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:27 pm to 42
I agree totally about Aminu. He has improved tremendously from last season. shite, he has made adjustments this season after his hot run ran cold and has become a pretty decent player playing "his game", as you mentioned.
As for GV, I believe he as always been decent and that he just needed minutes to produce. Im not sure how much better he has gotten under Monty, but it looks like you dug a little deeper and it seems he has improved somewhat.
For the record, I like Monty and what he brings. I think you can criticize a coach and still appreciate what he brings to the table. I'm sure we have all questioned Sean Payton at one point or another but we can still agree he's a top 5 coach in the NFL and that we wouldn't want anyone else.
As for GV, I believe he as always been decent and that he just needed minutes to produce. Im not sure how much better he has gotten under Monty, but it looks like you dug a little deeper and it seems he has improved somewhat.
For the record, I like Monty and what he brings. I think you can criticize a coach and still appreciate what he brings to the table. I'm sure we have all questioned Sean Payton at one point or another but we can still agree he's a top 5 coach in the NFL and that we wouldn't want anyone else.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:29 pm to tehchampion140
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:32 pm to 42
quote:
but it's good to dig into the numbers now and again and talk specifics rather get all high or low based on a recent game or streak
definitely. its a long season. friday was a bad game, but probably the first one in a month. no need to lose it bc they lost to gs, sas, and houston- all decent to very good teams.
and I agree about "monty" meaning the staff.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:41 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
For the record, I like Monty and what he brings. I think you can criticize a coach and still appreciate what he brings to the table. I'm sure we have all questioned Sean Payton at one point or another but we can still agree he's a top 5 coach in the NFL and that we wouldn't want anyone else.
I noted above, things have to change on the coaching side if this team is going to do some damage, but I'm not convinced that Monty can't be a championship coach. He'll have to build the right staff.
About GV, this is about a month old, but I don't think it's too out of date.
Of the 91 players averaging at least 30 minutes per game, 17 players have an AST%/TO% ratio exceeding 2. Only 10 players have a ratio higher than Greivis’ 2.228: George Hill (2.261), Jrue Holiday (2.353), Deron Williams (2.423), Kyle Lowry (2.437), Raymond Felton (2.628), Kemba Walker (2.746), LeBron “I’m not a point guard” James (2.966), Russell Westbrook (3.088), Tony Parker (3.313), and Chris Paul (3.383).
He hasn't revolutionized his game in all phases, that's for sure, and he's not an efficient shooter in general, but his passing is very good. When placed in situation where his shooting is 5% or 10% higher (spot up), then he'll have a role. His size gives another reason to want him on the floor.
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:52 pm to 42
Maybe you can answer this since you have probably witnessed a few practices... What exactly do the assistant coaches do? I watch them during the game and they are pretty much nonexistant. They just sit and watch the game. Is all their work put in at practice? At halftime? Are any of them considered "good"?
Posted on 1/26/13 at 10:57 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
At halftime?
If that's the case then we might need to fire all of them.
Posted on 1/27/13 at 12:09 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
Maybe you can answer this since you have probably witnessed a few practices... What exactly do the assistant coaches do? I watch them during the game and they are pretty much nonexistant. They just sit and watch the game. Is all their work put in at practice? At halftime? Are any of them considered "good"?
I've seen fewer than I should due to the day job(s), but the are basically the day-to-day presence with subgroups of players. For instance, when Borrego was here, he worked with the Forwards. Smith credits him with a good deal of his development.
These guys, like Monty, have worked their way through a number of jobs, like doing video work. The feed info back to Monty.
I'm sure they have other jobs. Ayers is the lead assistant, so he'll play Monty if Monty ever gets ejected.
If you notice in most timeouts not near the end of the game, Monty will have a small huddle with the other coaches, then they relate the results to the players in groups. Same idea.
Posted on 1/27/13 at 12:35 pm to 42
who would you like to see on staff that isnt there now?
Posted on 1/27/13 at 1:08 pm to corndeaux
I don't know enough about other coaches' situations on other teams. I just know I'm a fan of keeping things fluid at the assistant coach level in just about any sport. Change a position coach or two (in general) every year in football, rotate an assistant in in basketball, bring in new staff and techs in racing, even when you are winning. More so when you are not.
Posted on 1/27/13 at 2:32 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I love the name calling
I specifically left that out. Just sayin'.
Posted on 1/27/13 at 2:40 pm to 42
Makes sense. I'm leery of career assistants.
I want guys who are hungry and are looking to further their careers. You may lose something in continuity, but you are gaining motivated workers.
I want guys who are hungry and are looking to further their careers. You may lose something in continuity, but you are gaining motivated workers.
Posted on 1/27/13 at 2:45 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Makes sense. I'm leery of career assistants. I want guys who are hungry and are looking to further their careers. You may lose something in continuity, but you are gaining motivated workers.
Yeah, a long time first sergeant of sorts is cool, but getting some new ideas in and making moves to get better is a sign of strength. Making the right changes time after time is where the skill is needed.
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