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Posted on 1/10/13 at 1:32 am to VerlanderBEAST
Ba ha ha you can have your biggio. Can't believe this is serious lol.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 1:42 am to genro
quote:
I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.
It's impossible, I know. But I want to believe.
VerlanderBeast posts a lot of dumb shite sometimes but he's 100% right about the greatness of Biggio. At their peaks, Biggio wasn't that much inferior to Chipper offensively. Going by their best six year stretches, Chipper had an OPS+ of 152 while Biggio's OPS+ was 135. However, Biggio was significantly better defensively and on the basepaths. Going by WAR, Biggio's accumulated WAR of 35.7 is actually higher than Chipper's 34.2 WAR. He was actually a more valuable player at his peak than Chipper was.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 1:54 am to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
Oh and can we stop with the archaic way of comparing guys using career totals.
I used rate stats, almost exclusively.
The totals I used, I based off of career PAs, so as to show how much better Chipper was.
They played the same era, so not like we're fudging here.
quote:
But Biggio at 2nd>>>>>Chipper at 3rd.
Craig Biggio was an awful, awful 2B.
-32 DRS at 2B.
-5 DRA for Chipper at 3B.
Biggio's catching doesn't even get factored into his bad defense.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 2:01 am to genro
quote:it does exist, the answer is peej
I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.
It's impossible, I know. But I want to believe.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 2:01 am to OBUDan
quote:
I used rate stats, almost exclusively.
The totals I used, I based off of career PAs, so as to show how much better Chipper was.
1. UZR DRS etc are counting stats just like hits or homeruns
2. Any comparison of career #s whether rate or counting stats is archaic. Its silly to combine what they did when they were out of their primes and what they did out of their primes. Players should be compared by what they did at their best then if its somewhat close you can look at who was "better at their worst".
Posted on 1/10/13 at 2:11 am to OBUDan
quote:
Craig Biggio was an awful, awful 2B.
-32 DRS at 2B.
-5 DRA for Chipper at 3B.
DRS is a silly stat. Chipper had AWFUL range and wasn't reliable(made lots of errors). The fact that he is only -5 runs shows that the stat is silly.
FYI the DRS stat only goes back to 2003.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 2:18 am to RonBurgundy
Its chipper and its really not that close
Posted on 1/10/13 at 4:14 am to Elleshoe
Chipper, and this coming from a 'Stros fan.
The problem with Biggio is he stayed with the 'Stros his entire career. God bless him for doing it, but outside of Houston, I think he's a relative unknown.
The problem with Biggio is he stayed with the 'Stros his entire career. God bless him for doing it, but outside of Houston, I think he's a relative unknown.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 4:40 am to OBUDan
quote:
But Biggio at 2nd>>>>>Chipper at 3rd.
yeah i didn't get that either.. as if 2nd is all that big of a deal. chipper was an excellent defensive player.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 4:47 am to SouljaBreauxTellEm
quote:
chipper was an excellent defensive player.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 7:34 am to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
I like to imagine VerlanderBEAST isn't a troll, and that there is actually someone so incredibly dumb and overwhelmingly wrong 100% of the time in all aspects of sports.
This is exactly how I picture this poster to be.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:03 am to WreckinRams05
quote:
The first time he did it he was an all-star catcher that moved to 2nd. Second time he was sent to the outfield when jeff kent came in
Then moved yet again when Beltran came in.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:14 am to Tiger1242
quote:
LOL name one thing Biggio did better than Chipper
Run
Hit doubles
Hit triples
Steal bases
Get hit by pitch
Bunting
Play multiple positions
Not hit into double plays
Score runs
Look, I think Chipper was the better player as well, but the idea Chipper was better at every skill than Biggio is just stupid. It's way overstating the case for Chipper, and people are way overstating the case for Chipper. Thinking Biggio is better is perfectly defensible, though I think Chipper's edge in OBP and SLG is kind of a deal breaker. Those are the two most important skills in baseball (getting on and hitting for power), and chipper had them both in spades.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:26 am to Elleshoe
Biggo
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:31 am to craigbiggio
quote:
craigbiggio
quote:
Biggo
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:38 am to VerlanderBEAST
quote:
DRS is a silly stat.
Every single defensive stats comes with it's own sets of strengths and weaknesses.
quote:
made lots of errors)
Talk about silly stats.
quote:
FYI the DRS stat only goes back to 2003.
Yes, I know.
Biggio has range. And he's STILL terrible by every other metric.
This post was edited on 1/10/13 at 8:38 am
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:54 am to OBUDan
Nice work Dan. It's Chipper. Chipper is a no-doubt first ballot HOFer. One of the best switch hitters to ever play the game.
Posted on 1/10/13 at 8:54 am to Baloo
quote:
Run
quote:
Steal bases
I'll give you this.
quote:
Hit doubles
Hit triples
This means nothing to me. Chipper has more XBH in 2,000 fewer PAs. He shouldn't be sorry he hit 177 more home runs than Biggio. No one would trade those for more doubles and triples. Chipper hit more homeruns than Biggio, than Biggio hit more doubles/triples than Chipper.
If you do it by rates, just looking at doubles and triples, it's not that big of a discrepancy, either.
Biggio 723 doubles and triples in 12,504 PAs (17.29 PAs per double/triple).
Chipper 587 doubles and triples in 10,614 PAs (18.08 PAs per double/triple).
quote:
Bunting
If that's Biggio's better skill, he can have it.
quote:
Score runs
Lineup dependent. Chipper got on base at a higher rate, and had more total bases in far fewer PAs. He hit in the middle of the order, not the top. If he hit leadoff for most of his career like Biggio, he would have more runs scored.
His nearly 500 RBI (also lineup dependent) advantage more than makes up for it, anyhow.
quote:
but the idea Chipper was better at every skill than Biggio is just stupid.
Better at every skill? No.
Better at most every skill? Yes.
To me, the best skill Biggio maintained over Chipper was the ability to stay healthy. He stayed on the field constantly. Even into his late 30s. That's remarkable.
Chipper is knocked too often for his health (was mostly healthy through his peak), but once he aged, he just wasn't able to play as much and Biggio was. So I put that strongly in his favor.
quote:
Thinking Biggio is better is perfectly defensible,
I don't really see how. Chipper was worth 20 more wins than Biggio in fewer games.
Obviously I'm a well-known Braves fan. Chipper is my favorite player. But to me, the numbers are completely in his favor, and I don't think that's me being a homer.
If you put up Player A and Player B and listed all the stats blind, everyone would choose Chipper's numbers.
This post was edited on 1/10/13 at 8:56 am
Posted on 1/10/13 at 9:01 am to Elleshoe
Chipper Jones
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