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re: No MLB players elected to the HOF
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:43 pm to Lester Earl
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:43 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
I like Biggio, but shite he was never even the best player on his own team
That's hardly true.
quote:
Much less an MVP caliber player.
1998: .325 210 hits 51 doubles 2 triples 20 home runs 88 RBI 50 SB. Finished 5th in MVP voting. I'll let you guess why he wasn't higher.
1
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:45 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Lester Earl
I usually really enjoy hearing what you have to say. Most of the time you appear very informed.
You don't seem to be in this case.
Statistically speaking - Bill James has put Biggio at #5 on his list of best players of all time. Granted -- his approach is purely statistical analysis of Dollars spent VS. Value achieved, but it does add a bit of context to how under-appreciated Biggio's talents were. Yes, he did decline in his later years.
But to put Cano and Utley in the same sentence as Craig Biggio's career just makes me think you really don't know much about his career.
Out of his 20 year career, he was in the top 25 in runs scored 14 times. You don't achieve that type of consistency by not being a top MLB player.
Biggio pretty much kept his career stats the same as Sandbergs -- yet Biggio had about 2,000 more ABs. So, how do you equate Sandberg being that much better? I'll tell you how -- Sandberg played for the Cubs. Biggio played for the Astros. Both from an offensive perspective, Sandberg had the benefit of a better hitter's park. From a defensive perspective, Sandberg had the benefit of natural grass. If you ever got on the field in the Astrodome in the 90's, you'd know how huge of an advantage natural turf is to 2nd basemen.
If Biggio and Bagwell had played their entire careers in Minute Maid Park there would be no discussion. Their numbers would've been even better HOF caliber than they already are.
Sorry for the TL:DR crowd.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:46 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
I want the best of all time there.
So do I. But this idea that "only Willie Mays gets in" is so ridiculously restrictive that it means you'd have a Hall of like five people. I want Biggio in there precisely because he IS one of the greatest of all time.
And I've covered how much I hate the "mere compiler" argument, so just assume I went through it again. It's f'n HARD to compile.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:48 pm to Bho
quote:
Wow, a whole lot of dumb in this thread. I know there are Astros fans all over this site, but Biggio IS NOT a HOF.
3,000+ hits bitch.
This post was edited on 1/9/13 at 2:48 pm
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:49 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
t's almost like just because you are on the ballot, someone, somewhere, will makes case for you.
This isn't Todd Walker or Julio Franco, two guys on the ballot this year. this is one of easily the ten best 2nd basemen ever, and probably top five. Baseball spans over 125 years, and you think it somehow lessens the standards of the Hall of Fame to induct a guy who was easily top ten at his position? That's absurd.
Your HOF standard would eventually result in an empty museum that forget baseball's history entirely. Well, aside from the over 200 people already inducted.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:50 pm to Baloo
I'm not one of those wille mays people. I have a short meeting I need to go to but will explain in a minute
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:51 pm to BuckToothBilly
quote:
Biggio pretty much kept his career stats the same as Sandbergs -- yet Biggio had about 2,000 more ABs. So, how do you equate Sandberg being that much better?
As a Cardinals fan I have no special love for Sandberg since I think he was over-rated by the Cubs but that statement is very unfair.
Sandberg played from 1981-1997. He won Rookie of the Year, one MVP and was top five in MVP voting in two other years.
His numbers might look similar to Biggio if you do not consider the difference between dead ball in the 80s and steroid ball in the last half of the 90s thru the 2000s. They do not seem similar at all IMO when you consider then against the standard of their contemporaries
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:53 pm to molsusports
Yes, when adjust for context, Biggio's numbers are even better than Ryno's. All of those stolen bases in an era of the home run was almost unheard of.
I should note I am not an Astros fan.
I should note I am not an Astros fan.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:56 pm to Lsuhoohoo
Had he retired with 2700 hits, do you still think he is a HOF?
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:56 pm to Baloo
Biggio essentially played small ball in an era that was in love with home runs. While Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were hitting monster homers, Biggio was in the lead off spot setting the table for the guys behind him getting on base however he could (doubles, HBP) and getting into scoring position with stolen bases. Equally as important as the long ball but he doesn't get the respect he deserves because he didn't hit a ton of homers.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:57 pm to Baloo
I LOVE Biggio for being a base stealer in an era where the stat bastards marginalized perhaps the most entertaining play (stealing a base) in baseball - I was however arguing against the point of view that Biggio's offensive numbers can be compared apples to apples with a guy like Sandberg who had the prime of his career in the dead ball era
I think Biggio should probably eventually get into the HOF - but I would vote him in well after guys like Sandberg and Dale Murphy because I value players who were regarded as teh best in the game more than I value guys who were very good or even great for a long period of time.
I think Biggio should probably eventually get into the HOF - but I would vote him in well after guys like Sandberg and Dale Murphy because I value players who were regarded as teh best in the game more than I value guys who were very good or even great for a long period of time.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 2:58 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Had he retired with 2700 hits, do you still think he is a HOF?
I do. He was a game changer for most of his career. A table setter for the guys that get all the love. Like I said, that part of baseball seems to be under appreciated.
This post was edited on 1/9/13 at 2:59 pm
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:00 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
You'd take Biggio in his prime over those guys in their prime?
Ummm.. sorry, that isn't what the Hall of Fame is all about. You look through the history of baseball, you'll find players with 3 or 4 seasons with better stats than a lot of people in the Hall of Fame.
The HOF is about honoring the players who played the game at the highest level for a career -- not for a prime period. Everyone has peaks and valleys. Truly great players are the ones who rank high throughout their careers.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:03 pm to Lsuhoohoo
My opinion on Biggio....as informed or uninformed as you want to call it.
He was never the "best guy" in the league which to me is a big minus. He was also not a guy that I wanted to see play (meaning I would stop and rearrange my schedule). Those two statements to me do not make him HoF worthy.
In his defense, he played exceptionally well at 3 separate positions (C, OF, 2B) He won multiple Gold Gloves. Played in All Star games, and ended up with 3,000 plus hits.
He compiled a very nice stat line, but sometimes as baseball fans we get engrossed with stats and do not look at the player for who he was and the impact he made on the game.
He was never the "best guy" in the league which to me is a big minus. He was also not a guy that I wanted to see play (meaning I would stop and rearrange my schedule). Those two statements to me do not make him HoF worthy.
In his defense, he played exceptionally well at 3 separate positions (C, OF, 2B) He won multiple Gold Gloves. Played in All Star games, and ended up with 3,000 plus hits.
He compiled a very nice stat line, but sometimes as baseball fans we get engrossed with stats and do not look at the player for who he was and the impact he made on the game.
This post was edited on 1/9/13 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:06 pm to sms151t
quote:
He was also not a guy that I wanted to see play (meaning I would stop and rearrange my schedule).
Give him the exact same career numbers but put him in New York or Boston for his entire career. Then try to tel me that he wouldn't receive major hype for his numbers and the way he played. He would have been a super star and a "schedule re-arranger" if he had major market hype.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:07 pm to molsusports
quote:
I was however arguing against the point of view that Biggio's offensive numbers can be compared apples to apples with a guy like Sandberg who had the prime of his career in the dead ball era
I know, and I was arguing that, adjusted for context, Biggio's numbers look even better. Look at the peaks I posted. Who had the higher OPS+, a stat adjusted for context? Biggio.
and had Biggio played in the 80s, he'd be stealing a lot more than 40 bases a year. He happened to play in a station to station era, and he still had tons of steals.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:10 pm to Lsuhoohoo
I do not believe so. I dont consider Derek Jeter a must watch guy either.
In my lifetime, there has been only about 10 guys that I would "watch" if I knew they were on.
Clemens
Bonds
Schmidt
Henderson
Maddux
Johnson
Griffey, Jr
McGhee (but I am a Cards fan)
Stewart
Morris
In my lifetime, there has been only about 10 guys that I would "watch" if I knew they were on.
Clemens
Bonds
Schmidt
Henderson
Maddux
Johnson
Griffey, Jr
McGhee (but I am a Cards fan)
Stewart
Morris
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:15 pm to molsusports
quote:
His numbers might look similar to Biggio if you do not consider the difference between dead ball in the 80s and steroid ball in the last half of the 90s thru the 2000s. They do not seem similar at all IMO when you consider then against the standard of their contemporaries
If you are going to consider what you noted above, then you also have to consider half of Ryno's games were played in the hitter friendly Wrigley field... where as a large portion of Biggio's games were played in the Astrodome. Did you ever see a game there? It was HUGE.
In Sandberg's MVP year, he his offensive stats were lower than Biggio's 1998 stats by a significant margin. I'm not trying to debate if Sandberg is HOF worthy... nor am I trying to argue that he wasn't a better second basemen. But to not consider Biggio on par as an equally qualifed HOF baseball player is very narrow minded about the history of the game.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:20 pm to sms151t
quote:
In my lifetime, there has been only about 10 guys that I would "watch" if I knew they were on.
So, then you'd only have 10 Hall of Famers?
Why are you in this thread? You clearly are not a fan of baseball.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:23 pm to BuckToothBilly
You sir, then are putting people in just based off numbers. I am a fan of baseball, but I feel the HoF is for the best of the best and not just based on stats. Do you honestly consider Biggio, Blyleven, or Jim Rice the best of the best?
In that era I mentioned those were 10 great players and the HoF does not have to include everyone who reaches milestone X like the PGA HoF does.
In that era I mentioned those were 10 great players and the HoF does not have to include everyone who reaches milestone X like the PGA HoF does.
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