Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism | Page 15 | TigerDroppings.com

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GeauxTigerTM
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

Perfectly put.


I think Ken Miller puts it well here, too...though a slightly different point. His is more in regards to the scientific process and how creationists want to do this kind of end around.

LINK

For once, I'd like to be in on a discussion about the validity of special creationism. For once I'd like to see someone here grow a pair of balls, present evidence for their case, and then sit back and answer criticisms of their hypothesis.

Instead, we get some asshat who asserts special creationism is true and then proceeds to "attack" evolution poorly in lieu of presenting facts that support his claim.






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Fun Bunch
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

I asked this VERY early on of darkhorse and he refused to play. If there is a contingent out there that wants creationism taught in place of evolution, than it behooves them to do something more than try and tear down evolution. They need to make a positive case for their account.

Instead what you get is a whole lot of criticism of evolution (most of it completely absurd and bordering on professional level ignorance) coupled with an assumption that you can simply drop the judo-christian creation account in the void. You can't.

Darkhorse is welcome to link any and all peer reviewed scientific papers which point to special creation being a better answer for what we see in the natural world. He can try and make a case for special creation without mentioning evolution...you know, the way every other evolutionary scientist does without ever feeling the need to mention creationism when he's presenting evidence for his cause. He's made an assertion...and spent the rest of the time trying to get you guys to defend the theory of evolution. Don't play.


But but but, you didn't prove that Creationism is not true sir!






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darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


I have not left the thread, but I am on a family vacation. I will responde asap.

However, I would like to point out that I laid out a case for the first half of Gen. I would like a serious response to that.

Everything I have responded to and answered. From the order of creation vs the order science states is correct to explaining the flaw of trying to force gen 2 into a chronological order.... It's not.







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catholictigerfan
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


another bump

this thread is like a cat on life 6 now I think



This post was edited on 12/28 at 7:01 am


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Fun Bunch
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

Everything I have responded to and answered.


False. You have been asked repeatedly to make a positive case for creationism, using observable data, peer reviewed research, the scientific method.

Make a POSITIVE case for your "theory", and why it should be taught in a science class.

You have repeatedly failed and refused to do so with the most flawed logic imaginable ("prove a negative!".

Please then, make your case.






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HeadChange
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism




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Fun Bunch
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


I've seen that before but it still makes me laugh.





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darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

Pectus


Sorry for he delay.

quote:

quote:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The deep and the waters here signify the void that was before the Earth "was". I get it. Except the Earth is here because of the galaxy, and the galaxy is here because of the Big Bang.


That's wrong. This perfectly lines up.

1- God created the heavens and the earth. This IS the universe. The sun, moon, earth...etc.

2- starts with the way began.

Just for kicks for you and others here:

ONCE UPON A TIME God created everything (verse 1) and this is the siutation.. the earth was formless and empty (verse 2)

Understand?

quote:

quote:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Day and night are only possible because of the Sun. The Earth and the Sun are roughly the same age and were both made from condensation of matter (gas and solidus for the Sun and Earth, respectively)


This is correct and I explained that in my earlier post. My studies have led me to believe that it was the light from what would become the sun. No issue here....

quote:

quote:6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

The only way there could be the sky is if there were atmosphere, and the only way there would be atmosphere is from the degassing of lava. It is still debated just how molten Earth was prior to cooling down, but you bet there were some active lava flows and deeper magma bodies that put much gas into the atmosphere. This part creation science.


Currently matches science. Correct.


quote:

quote:11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The only way for the magma and lava degassing to be bearable by living organisms is if the toxic components, e.g. carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen sulfide are to be reworked and replaced by molecules that life is tolerant of. Trees were not the first plant. What if the author meant photoautotroph? Well that would mean some algae that create lots of oxygen to the point where the atmosphere is bearable. But what about the sea? Lava vents in the sea as well. These bacteria/algae are the heros of making Earth bearable. They made the water and much much later atmosphere bearable for more complicated life forms to evolve and radiate.


Of no concern to me at at all. What ever stages came prior to this is not mentioned. The author does not go into that. Me adding to it would be flawed. There is no contradiction to science, only a lack of information.

quote:

quote:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.


Our solar system was spawned at roughly the same time, i.e. the Sun and its surrounding planets are all about the same age. The same can't be said for surrounding stars and galaxies, which all have varying ages. Other stars and galaxies had to exist before there was any tree. The Moon had to exist before there was any tree as well, and probably before any thick atmosphere.(The Moon is a piece of the Earth that was knocked loose from the planet due to a large impact; it remains trapped in Earth's gravitational field.) One huge point: You'd think that God would realize that the Sun is responsible for the light during the day as well as the light during the night? Like moonlight is just sunlight reflecting off the surface of the Moon.


Again, there is no conflict with science here. How long did it take for fusion to begin in the what became the sun? This goes with what I stated above. The beginning of the sun was already in place. Was the T Tauri Star now a sun at this point in genesis? Once you grasp that, you can easily understand what is going on.

The Sun was something before it was the sun. T Tauri Star is what we now beleive that to be. At some point fusion began and it became the sun.

You ar right. We need the moon. It was there.. it became visible. Now, to completely understand this, you have to study the hebrew language. Look up the difference in create, created, and made.

I will stop here and add the second half of your post after my family is asleep tonight.







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tiger1014
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Member since Jan 2011
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


Wait they teach in New Orleans school????

This really is a breaking development



This post was edited on 12/28 at 10:37 am


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Fat Bastard
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

LuckySo-n-So



ahh yes, but you are ok with your THEORIES right?






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GeauxTigerTM
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

ahh yes, but you are ok with your THEORIES right?


Continuing to use this canard makes you either A) ignorant, B) willfully ignorant or C) a fricking liar.

If you're merely ignorant, I'll explain why a scientific theory is not a guess as used in every day language. If you've heard this explanation before but refuse to hear it, than you're willfully ignorant and I won't bother. If you have heard it AND understand what it really means but continue to use it to fool idiots who find this type of thing persuasive, than you can promptly go frick yourself.






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Solo
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


Orleans Parish getting something right. Sweet Lordy Jesus.





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SammyTiger
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


I am starting to think darkhorse misunderstands what creationism is.





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darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

I am starting to think darkhorse misunderstands what creationism is.


No, I understand perfectly fine. It's simply an interpretive framework just like evolutionism. It takes data from many fields of study. Science is the tool to gather data. Both Creationism and Evolutionism has a framework. Neither Creationism nor Evolutionism is a science. Both rely upon actual fields of science to gather information. They both then try to fit that data into their frame work. The only difference is Creationism also relies on historical accounts to back up the data.

That brings me to the answer for the question "why should it be taught in schools vs evolution". For the same reasons evolution is being taught. If you call evolution a science, then creation by the same rules applied is a science too.







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NC_Tigah
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

That brings me to the answer for the question "why should it be taught in schools vs evolution". For the same reasons evolution is being taught. If you call evolution a science, then creation by the same rules applied is a science too.
Creationism should be a broadly encompassing term. However, in today's vernacular it is normally bastardized to solely describe "Young Earth Science."
For clarification, do you think kids should be taught the Earth is 6500yrs old?






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Fun Bunch
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

evolutionism


No such word.

quote:

Neither Creationism nor Evolutionism is a science


This is true, because there is no such thing as "Evolutionism".

The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory based on observable data, encompassing all fields of life sciences.

There is literally thousands upon thousands of pages of "data" in all branches of life science that lead to and support the Theory of Evolution.

Please, once again, SUPPLY YOUR TESTABLE, OBSERVABLE, SUPPORTABLE DATA THAT SUPPORTS THE CREATIONISM "SCIENCE" that puts it on the level of The Theory of Evolution.

You have repeatedly failed to do so.

quote:

If you call evolution a science, then creation by the same rules applied is a science too.


By what rules? Once again, Evolution is supported by 150 years of research with thousands of scientists actively trying to move or disprove the model.

Creationism is supported by 0 data. None. Zilch.

So, once again, provide your evidence.

We'll wait...forever.






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Fun Bunch
New Orleans Saints Fan
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

They both then try to fit that data into their frame work.


And you're also wrong here. That's exactly what Creationists do, which is the problem. They think everyone must do it that way too.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Scientists do the exact opposite.







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darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
7701 posts

re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

Creationism should be a broadly encompassing term. However, in today's vernacular it is normally bastardized to solely describe "Young Earth Science." For clarification, do you think kids should be taught the Earth is 6500yrs old?


I feel the same way about that as I do about teaching man came from monkeys. For example, we have just this year, Todd Preuss stating in the PNAS that:

"It is now clear that the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees are far more extensive than previously thought; their genomes are not 98% or 99% identical. Despite the rapid growth in our understanding of the evolution of the human genome, our understanding of the relationship between genetic changes and phenotypic changes is tenuous. This is true even for the most intensively studied gene, FOXP2, which underwent positive selection in the human terminal lineage and is thought to have played an important role in the evolution of human speech and language."

To the PNAS

So now we are "backing up"...

Science is science. It's a tool to gather data. Evolutionism is a framework. Creationism is a framework. They both put that data within their frame work. See what I mean?

So if you teach one framework, I see no issue in teaching another framework.







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Fun Bunch
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re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

teaching man came from monkeys.


No one teaches that because no one believes man came from monkeys.

quote:

Science is science. It's a tool to gather data. Evolutionism is a framework. Creationism is a framework. They both put that data within their frame work. See what I mean?



No. No I do not.

Once again, please provide your evidence through observable, testable data that "proves" the Creation account as interpreted by Creationists.

That Adam and Eve were the first two humans, that homo sapien started with them and then all humans have come from those two.

That dinosaurs and man lived side by side. That all animals were plant-eaters pre-Fall.

That all current organisms on this earth stem from 2 as told in the Noah account.

And so on and on and on.

Explain the thousands of transitional fossils we have, including those of humanoids. Explain dinosaurs. Explain radio-carbon dating, as well as the dozens of other ways we confirm the date of various things that all agree with each other.

and on and on and on.






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darkhorse
Member since Aug 2012
7701 posts

re: Orleans Parish School Board votes to ban creationism


quote:

quote:evolutionism No such word.


Yes there is! Here's the link to the dictionary. evolutionism

quote:

ev·o·lu·tion·ism (v-lsh-nzm, v-)

1. A theory of biological evolution, especially that formulated by Charles Darwin.
2. Advocacy of or belief in biological evolution.







quote:

The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory based on observable data, encompassing all fields of life sciences.


And Creation is a theory based on all fields of sciences..

You just proved my point. Either you are saying that all sciences are evolution or you are saying that evolution is a framework used to interpet that data.

It is a framework.

quote:

There is literally thousands upon thousands of pages of "data" in all branches of life science that lead to and support the Theory of Evolution.


Again.... it's a framework as you keep proving my point.

quote:

Please, once again, SUPPLY YOUR TESTABLE, OBSERVABLE, SUPPORTABLE DATA THAT SUPPORTS THE CREATIONISM "SCIENCE" that puts it on the level of The Theory of Evolution.


I have given some. You never responded. I will link you to more tonight.

quote:

By what rules? Once again, Evolution is supported by 150 years of research with thousands of scientists actively trying to move or disprove the model.


And creation has been supported alot longer. I gave a list of scientists (partial.. by no means full). The fact that evolution is a framework to interpet, not an actual science. It is NOT a field. It is a means to interpet data from all fields of science.









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