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re: Baseball Hall of Fame ballot out today....felt dirty looking at it..who gets in?
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:21 pm to rutiger
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:21 pm to rutiger
quote:
this is the problem with everyone from that era. there were no tests in place to know who was juicing, so people just go on assumptions.
the assumptions are based on deeper issues like whether or not the person is question is likeable or was a player they greatly admired before the issue of steroids was raised.
steroid use is a great out or rationalization to blackball guys if you are a fan or a reporter. IMO it will be used in a highly inconsistent manner to keep some guys out of the HOF and ignored when it comes to other players.
quote:
thats why i believe if you didnt fail a mlb test and you're worthy (bonds, clemons, ect) you should get in.
failing a test strikes me as silly distinction - now you're just picking on guys who played more recently and had a less sophisticated drug distributor
2
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:22 pm to Baloo
quote:
there is no body type to a juicer. It's ridiculous to think so.
some pretty clear signs with no clothes on. It's pretty easy to see frankly. The media who covered those teams on a daily basis certainly were able to distinguish between who was and wasn't
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:26 pm to stapuffmarshy
I agree with that to a limited extent - there are some types of steroids that are used to build mass and will show up in obvious physical changes.
but I agree with Baloo that there are also people without that body type who used and (if I'm not putting words into his mouth) benefited substantially from the use of PEDs.
Most users didn't have combination of heavy use and physical potential to transform as baseball players like Bonds and McGwire - but undoubtedly hundreds of players used PEDs with success
but I agree with Baloo that there are also people without that body type who used and (if I'm not putting words into his mouth) benefited substantially from the use of PEDs.
Most users didn't have combination of heavy use and physical potential to transform as baseball players like Bonds and McGwire - but undoubtedly hundreds of players used PEDs with success
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:32 pm to molsusports
quote:
but I agree with Baloo that there are also people without that body type who used and (if I'm not putting words into his mouth) benefited substantially from the use of PEDs.
no I don't disagree and I get his point in general.
from my personal experience, Piazza isn't one of those guys. Never saw a example of anything.
Means nothing though. Just my view from where I was at that point in my life.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:46 pm to molsusports
quote:
the assumptions are based on deeper issues like whether or not the person is question is likeable or was a player they greatly admired before the issue of steroids was raised.
steroid use is a great out or rationalization to blackball guys if you are a fan or a reporter. IMO it will be used in a highly inconsistent manner to keep some guys out of the HOF and ignored when it comes to other players.
ie bonds.
quote:
failing a test strikes me as silly distinction - now you're just picking on guys who played more recently and had a less sophisticated drug distributor
how else can you determine who was using? i see your point though.
This post was edited on 11/28/12 at 1:48 pm
Posted on 11/28/12 at 1:53 pm to molsusports
I don't think this is the body of a juicer. No signs of a steroid like test or a steroid such as winstrol.
Piazza was 6'3" 200lbs. If he was juicing he would have been at least 220+ on that frame IMO
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:02 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
I don't think this is the body of a juicer.
1) we've already discussed this and I think the reasonable consensus is there is no such thing as a body that is not the body of a juicer. Certainly some may juice to build mass (Bonds, McGwire, etc) but others juice for faster recovery, or gains in strength and speed and do not want to put on additional mass
2) you seem to assume a catcher would have juiced for mass. If you are a catcher you want to be stronger and recover more quickly but (esp if you have bad knees) you may not want to be bigger and break your knees down more quickly
Pudge was a catcher who did (IMO) use PEDs as a catcher but he never had the lingering knee issues that Piazza seemed to (FWIW - McGwire's career was cut short mostly because of knee problems and a lot of steroid users experience problems with their joints).
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:12 pm to LSUGrad9295
I think the time is right for Lee Smith.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:17 pm to molsusports
quote:
1) we've already discussed this and I think the reasonable consensus is there is no such thing as a body that is not the body of a juicer. Certainly some may juice to build mass (Bonds, McGwire, etc) but others juice for faster recovery, or gains in strength and speed and do not want to put on additional mass
There are tell tale signs for juicers depending on which steroid is being used. He would jacked with muscles if he took deca or test, or he would be cut up and veiny if he was on winstrol, for example.
quote:
2) you seem to assume a catcher would have juiced for mass. If you are a catcher you want to be stronger and recover more quickly but (esp if you have bad knees) you may not want to be bigger and break your knees down more quickly
Well Piazza hit 427 HR, I assume he would be accused of juicing for mass.
quote:
Pudge was a catcher who did (IMO) use PEDs as a catcher but he never had the lingering knee issues that Piazza seemed to (FWIW - McGwire's career was cut short mostly because of knee problems and a lot of steroid users experience problems with their joints).
I think Pudge probably juiced too. But he was also a small dude. Piazza was one of the bigger catchers and still caught 16 years, he was bound to have knee problems. I think most catchers do.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:21 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Piazza was 6'3" 200lbs.
Piazza's quads weighed more than 200lbs. dude was way bigger than that
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:25 pm to Baloo
quote:
And there is no body type to a juicer. It's ridiculous to think so.
There certainly used to be when steroids first became widespread. Everything they used to take added bulk.
Not so much in the last 10 years when the products have become more complex, with more variety. Alex Sanchez was caught in 2005. And from reports he was only using over the counter stuff that he had been taking before the new rules were in place.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:27 pm to Lester Earl
Just going by baseball reference h/w, bro!
he did look bigger than 200.
he did look bigger than 200.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:30 pm to GynoSandberg
he was 230 at least in his prime. he was a big, thick, meaty dude
I'm not saying he juiced, but his body mold definitely changed a lot, similar to Pudge. And when his body changed his production went down.
I know they were both catchers, & a drop was expected after so many years behind the plate, but is awfully coincidental
I'm not saying he juiced, but his body mold definitely changed a lot, similar to Pudge. And when his body changed his production went down.
I know they were both catchers, & a drop was expected after so many years behind the plate, but is awfully coincidental
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:30 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
There certainly used to be when steroids first became widespread. Everything they used to take added bulk.
I think that's conventional wisdom but it is probably just wrong - the steroid issue was largely ignored by fans and media for over a decade even though some obvious examples of abuse were on the record (e.g. caminiti)
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:31 pm to GynoSandberg
Gimme Bags, Biggio and Piazza
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:36 pm to molsusports
quote:
I think that's conventional wisdom but it is probably just wrong - the steroid issue was largely ignored by fans and media for over a decade even though some obvious examples of abuse were on the record
The mitchell report outed a lot of people
and when someone added 25lbs of muscle and all of a sudden starts hitting balls out the park when they never did before, its pretty easy to put 2+2 together.
It was ignored, but i dont see why that matters when looking at someone's body and increased production.
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:38 pm to LSUGrad9295
Craig Biggio for sure
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:39 pm to craigbiggio
quote:
Craig Biggio for sure
speaking of roiders...
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:40 pm to GynoSandberg
quote:
Had his 2 highest HR seasons at age 39 and 40. 3 straight 20 HR seasons at 38, 39, and 40.
24, 26 and 21 HRs. He had just hit 20 a few years before, so we aren't talking a massive jump. He also played his prime in the Dome, which probably cost him a few HRs.
quote:
Coincidentally, it also aligns with his move to the OF at age 37, where he would have needed extra speed, stamina, and a better throwing arm.
So he plays an entire year in the OF and decides he needs to juice? Wouldn't it have been more likely that he started juicing around 93 with Caminiti (known juicer) Bagwell and Luis Gonzalez (alleged juicers) all on his team?
Posted on 11/28/12 at 2:45 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
I think that's conventional wisdom but it is probably just wrong - the steroid issue was largely ignored by fans and media for over a decade even though some obvious examples of abuse were on the record
The mitchell report outed a lot of people
mitchell report was a long time after steroids were first a major part of baseball
quote:
and when someone added 25lbs of muscle and all of a sudden starts hitting balls out the park when they never did before,
well sure (in retrospect) but Brady Anderson, Gary Sheffield, Raf Palmiero etc went largely unnoticed as probable PED users at the time
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