- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Does throwing long loosen up things for the run even without a high completion %
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:50 pm
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:50 pm
Last year (heck, for the last several years I think) there was an ongoing debate about what opened up defenses for the run more - passing or option or scrambling type running by the QB.
Definitely NOT trying to open up old QB controversies here, but one question that has occurred to me this year is whether taking some deep shots can open up the running game if the deep shots are not that successful.
Seems to me that, based on the A&M game (and maybe a little from the SC game) that even if al or most of the deep shots are not completed, it still tends to spread out the D and allow the running game to flourish.
Of course, I think if the passing game resulted in interceptions, a large number of sacks or sacks that cause fumbles, whatever advantage that is gained would be outweighed. But absent that, I think even a deep passing ration of say 50% or lower and even a couple of sacks would still be beneficial in the long term by loosening up the D.
So, what says the Rant? I know there are those here with more football knowledge than me that can weigh in.
Definitely NOT trying to open up old QB controversies here, but one question that has occurred to me this year is whether taking some deep shots can open up the running game if the deep shots are not that successful.
Seems to me that, based on the A&M game (and maybe a little from the SC game) that even if al or most of the deep shots are not completed, it still tends to spread out the D and allow the running game to flourish.
Of course, I think if the passing game resulted in interceptions, a large number of sacks or sacks that cause fumbles, whatever advantage that is gained would be outweighed. But absent that, I think even a deep passing ration of say 50% or lower and even a couple of sacks would still be beneficial in the long term by loosening up the D.
So, what says the Rant? I know there are those here with more football knowledge than me that can weigh in.
9
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:52 pm to Methuselah
I think showing that you will throw long does loosen up the defense. Obviously completing the passes help much more, but showing a willingingness will certainly make D coordinators think it could happen and keep a safety or two back.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:54 pm to SouthOfSouth
We threw enough deep passes where teams will at least expect the attempts now
I think Bama will challenge us to throw on them
We need to hit one early
I think Bama will challenge us to throw on them
We need to hit one early
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:55 pm to Methuselah
YES x1000000. Also running shep on the wr option hand off by putting him in motion keeps half the side of the defense honest....whether we give it to him or not....it should be in way more formations....even if we don't hand it off we can still throw to him like a normal route.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 4:58 pm to Methuselah
I don't know.
I think Bama will sell out t stop the run and wait for us to actually complete one of those deep passes before adjusting. And based on what we've seen so far, that won't happen
I think Bama will sell out t stop the run and wait for us to actually complete one of those deep passes before adjusting. And based on what we've seen so far, that won't happen
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:00 pm to SouthOfSouth
quote:
I think showing that you will throw long does loosen up the defense. Obviously completing the passes help much more, but showing a willingingness will certainly make D coordinators think it could happen and keep a safety or two back.
This. Even though we have struggled a bit with drops and such, we DO have enough talent at the WR position, that it makes the above statement true and real to the Defenses, meaning that it is no longer a theoretical argument, but a realistic one.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:04 pm to Methuselah
i think our completion percentage has been so low this season it might have the opposite effect. last season, we hardly ever threw deep, but when we did, our completion percentage was so high, probably over 60%, that it forced defenses to respect it. this season were probably getting less than 25% on passes over 20 yards.
the A&M game was especially bad, because our wr's had separation on every single frickin one of those plays, AND we had good protection, yet it took an amazing catch just to complete one of those passes. it basically sends the message, that even if you cant get pressure, and even if your guys get beat by our guys, the vast majority of the time it will just be a loss of down for us anyways. the times where the other team gets pressure, or the db makes a play drives the threat of having a long pass completed on you down closer to 10%. a 10% chance of giving up a big play isnt going to force a defense to do jack shite in regards to adjustments
the A&M game was especially bad, because our wr's had separation on every single frickin one of those plays, AND we had good protection, yet it took an amazing catch just to complete one of those passes. it basically sends the message, that even if you cant get pressure, and even if your guys get beat by our guys, the vast majority of the time it will just be a loss of down for us anyways. the times where the other team gets pressure, or the db makes a play drives the threat of having a long pass completed on you down closer to 10%. a 10% chance of giving up a big play isnt going to force a defense to do jack shite in regards to adjustments
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:07 pm to memphis tiger
No question. Good D/C's look for this on film, and if there is no threat to throw downfield, the SS and friends cheat towards the LOS for more run support.
When two teams are equal in talent, you have to find an edge. Sometimes the difference is having more hats at the point of attack. Alot of coaching is about getting your players aligned properly and putting them in a position to be successful. Coaches look for areas that they don't have to respect as much so that they can put more emphasis in others, so if you force them to defend every inch of turf then it makes it much more difficult to do.
Very similar to a hitter in baseball not having to worry about any breaking or off speed pitches, if he can sit on the fastball he will have more success.
When two teams are equal in talent, you have to find an edge. Sometimes the difference is having more hats at the point of attack. Alot of coaching is about getting your players aligned properly and putting them in a position to be successful. Coaches look for areas that they don't have to respect as much so that they can put more emphasis in others, so if you force them to defend every inch of turf then it makes it much more difficult to do.
Very similar to a hitter in baseball not having to worry about any breaking or off speed pitches, if he can sit on the fastball he will have more success.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:10 pm to Methuselah
It won't matter against Saban. Saban is going to load the box to stop the run and predominantly play press man on the outside. He'll do that so long as the passes fall incomplete. He'll probably do it even if Mett completes some long balls downfield. It's his philosophy. Stop the run, force the offense into long third downs, pressure the passer.
In sum, we'll have to consistently pass the ball downfield with success to score points on Bama. We can't hope that the mere threat of sporadic bombs is going to force Saban to alter his defense and allow the run. It won't happen.
In sum, we'll have to consistently pass the ball downfield with success to score points on Bama. We can't hope that the mere threat of sporadic bombs is going to force Saban to alter his defense and allow the run. It won't happen.
This post was edited on 10/24/12 at 5:12 pm
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:15 pm to el duderino III
I think the deep ball is still a valid tool to employ. We have the speed at WR to get deep, and the arm strength at QB to launch it. Given how hard you have to work to score against LSU's defense, and how generally we want to run the ball and shorten the game, I'd think opposing coaches would absolutely hate to give us a quick TD.
We're not exactly WVU on offense, but then we aren't on defense either. 1 long TD could mean the game, even against Bama, if our defense continues to be so strong, and we keep grinding away with the run.
We're not exactly WVU on offense, but then we aren't on defense either. 1 long TD could mean the game, even against Bama, if our defense continues to be so strong, and we keep grinding away with the run.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:17 pm to The312
Saban will put his front seven and eight against ours and try win that battle. They will more often than not just like our defense. The ability to throw the ball deep and actually completing a deep ball are two different things. Defense must respect the deep ball and if they do it does open favorable match ups. Like LSU, it will be very difficult to move the ball with 10 play 70-80 yard drives. Turnovers as always are the great equalizer.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:34 pm to LSUviaCincy
If you put 3 or 4 WR's out wide, defenses have no choise but to match up. The key is to spread them out wide. This takes defenders away from the "box". Completing deep passes determines if the D will keep safeties back, which keeps 1 possibly 2 more defenders away from the line of scrimmage.
If we throw deep with no actual success, defenses tend to play man and place every available defender around the line of scrimmage to stop the run. If you complete some long ones, the defense tends to man up with help over the top by the safeties to aid with coverage.
Our running game is A LOT better than most dans know because we regularly run the ball against 8 and 9 defenders in the box and still average over 200 yds a game. Just stop and imagine if we faced only 5, 6, or 7 defenders in the box.
If we throw deep with no actual success, defenses tend to play man and place every available defender around the line of scrimmage to stop the run. If you complete some long ones, the defense tends to man up with help over the top by the safeties to aid with coverage.
Our running game is A LOT better than most dans know because we regularly run the ball against 8 and 9 defenders in the box and still average over 200 yds a game. Just stop and imagine if we faced only 5, 6, or 7 defenders in the box.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:41 pm to ellis1975
if completed deep pass equates to points on the board. Our problem has been OL could not prevent penetration long enough for QB to set up and deliver deep pass. Not sure if that has changed since adjustments in OL have been made. I think Mett is capable of hitting a deep receiver if given sufficent time in pocket, now whether the WR actually can catch and complete the pass is another question. This got to happen if we have chance against bama defense. they stack the box and we are not going to run up the middle and move the ball down the field. Mix it up enough and we got a chance to play with anybody.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:43 pm to Methuselah
Easy answer, YES
Posted on 10/24/12 at 5:56 pm to Methuselah
With our success @ running the ball, our play action short to middle passing game should be successful. A little more creativity and using formations and alignments to create a numbers advantage in certain situations would help the success of the passing game. And give Mett some confidence & rythym.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 6:02 pm to Powerman
quote:
We need to hit one early
This would work a lot better if the receivers would make a play on the ball. If they fail to do so, they may get embarrassed in play only by a freshman receiver on Alabama's team in terms of performance. Amari Cooper (6'1, 185) attacks the ball. Note that he did not have to be 6'5 215lbs to do so.
Maybe we just need to get all of our receivers from Florida since that's where he's from? (I don't really believe this) They just need to work harder.
This post was edited on 10/24/12 at 6:29 pm
Posted on 10/24/12 at 6:08 pm to Methuselah
quote:
Does throwing long loosen up things for the run even without a high completion %
Depends on the team you are playing. You have to look at it from the other teams perspective first so you can understand the coaches choices.
TAMU coaches knew there was no way they could hope to stop LSU's running game with only 7 or 8 in the box, they knew this for a FACT.
They had also seen our struggles in the pass game so it was a no brainer for them to "sell out" to stop the run and gamble with so much zero coverage. I haven't seen very many games when a coaching staff took such big risks with their defense. There were several times during the game that they literally had all 11 defensive players within 6 yards of the line of scrimmage!
Alabama won't take those same chances because they don't have to. If you ever watch much NFL football you will see the type of cat and mouse game that LSU/Bama always play with each other. When two teams are fairly equally talented one defender either way can make a big difference.
In the NFL its simple, if they give you a 7 man box you run it, if they give you an 8 man box you throw it. Its up to your running game to force the 8 man box or your passing game to force the 7 man box.
Thats how LSU and Bama tend to parry back and forth. If Saban can stop your running game with a 7 man box...he's got you. If you can force him to commit 8...you got a chance...providing your pass game can produce. Its the same choice for Chavis and our defense.
Posted on 10/24/12 at 6:46 pm to Methuselah
Absolutely it does. Right now, we can't complete the shorter routes because of so much traffic bunched up because of the run. Even the DE's just put their hands up and block the throw. People say it's because our receivers aren't fast enough or physical enough. B.S.!!
At least when you throw deep the corners have to respect it and the DE's can't block the throw. The corners are forced to move over the wide outs. One slip or stumble by a DB and it's a huge play.
Throwing deep also keeps the safeties deeper so they too can't cheat on the slants or help as quickly with run support. That opens up some slants and shorter routes as well. There won't be as much traffic bunched up within 10 - 15 yards of the line of scrimmage.
It doesn't matter if their completion percentage on the deep balls is low. Any deep completion is a game changer. If you can't run consistently because of 8 guys in the box or run a controlled passing game (which they haven't been able to do), then go VERTICAL! At least you're taking a shot at a big play rather than going three & out. Apologize for being long-winded.
At least when you throw deep the corners have to respect it and the DE's can't block the throw. The corners are forced to move over the wide outs. One slip or stumble by a DB and it's a huge play.
Throwing deep also keeps the safeties deeper so they too can't cheat on the slants or help as quickly with run support. That opens up some slants and shorter routes as well. There won't be as much traffic bunched up within 10 - 15 yards of the line of scrimmage.
It doesn't matter if their completion percentage on the deep balls is low. Any deep completion is a game changer. If you can't run consistently because of 8 guys in the box or run a controlled passing game (which they haven't been able to do), then go VERTICAL! At least you're taking a shot at a big play rather than going three & out. Apologize for being long-winded.
Page 1 of 1
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News