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Message
re: Lets have a discussion about red cards
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:36 pm to Friend of OBUDan
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:36 pm to Friend of OBUDan
quote:
The stoppage during a red card situation lasts 2-4 minutes anyways and they already confer with other refs before their final decision is made. Not sure how having an assistant upstairs looking at the replay would aff4ect the fluidity of the game.
Thats the thing, it likely wouldn't stop there. You would be reviewing out of bounds, goals, pk's, yellows, reds, and on and on and on before it was over with. That is why I referenced the slippery slope argument previously.
And furthermore, we have seen the video from the valencia foul/pk and the shelvey red card from the Man U vs Liverpool match and opinions are split. So then what, add a bunch of procedures saying it has be this or that and only certain things can be reviewed....................meh just get better refs or train the ones we have now better.
1
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:36 pm to rsande2
Slippery slope is your only argument? 
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:37 pm to TheOcean
quote:
Slippery slope is your only argument?
And that you can't read or scroll up and down a page!
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:48 pm to rsande2
I don't really see the slippery slope argument being effective in the context of soccer, the least malleable of all sports. Are you against goal line technology? I would presume yes, if you're really worried about slippery slopes.
I don't think you have an appreciation for how well trained professional referees are. You aren't going to magically improve the product by saying "train harder!" They're humans and will make mistakes in a fast-paced game.
If they aren't going to review calls like that on the field, they should at the very least have a more generous appeal policy. Players shouldn't be suspended because of lousy calls. And they shouldn't fear additional suspension for appealing.
I don't think you have an appreciation for how well trained professional referees are. You aren't going to magically improve the product by saying "train harder!" They're humans and will make mistakes in a fast-paced game.
If they aren't going to review calls like that on the field, they should at the very least have a more generous appeal policy. Players shouldn't be suspended because of lousy calls. And they shouldn't fear additional suspension for appealing.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 2:54 pm to Friend of OBUDan
quote:
Are you against goal line technology?
Actually no, as I stated earlier in the thread. I think this can be implemented without any disruption with something similiar to what hockey has.
quote:
If they aren't going to review calls like that on the field, they should at the very least have a more generous appeal policy. Players shouldn't be suspended because of lousy calls. And they shouldn't fear additional suspension for appealing.
I could go along with this, perhaps take away the next game part of the suspension if the call was made in error. However as I pointed out, people on here have digested the two calls against Liverpool from last weekend and opinions are still split and thats with the benefit of slow motion video and different camera angles, just sayin.....
This post was edited on 9/28/12 at 2:55 pm
Posted on 9/28/12 at 3:47 pm to TheOcean
quote:
I think they should have a two tier system for red cards. Once a red card is given, it is watched via instant replay and then it's determined which tier the card will be. Tier 1 red, the player is off the pitch, but the team can sub in. Tier 2 red, the player is off and the team cannot sub.
There are times when red cards are subjective, and I don't think this would help.
In response to the OP, a straight red card is usually merited. If you say that red cards will be punished less harshly than having your team play down a man, then the true punishment of a red is not felt and the players have more of an incentive to play dirty.
Refs should always think before issuing a red, but I don't think they should be reticent to issue them in the first half if the play merits it. If refs really avoided doing this (and sometimes I think they do) you can expect players to take advantage.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 4:19 pm to rsande2
I really don't see any difference between goal line technology and reviewing red cards as far as seamless integration into the flow of the game goes. Goal line technology stops it more in fact, because it creates a stoppage where the ref wouldn't have stopped the game previously. Now clearly, there are some red cards that lead to split opinions, but as in other reviews it would take some level of certainty to overturn the call on the field.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 4:42 pm to cwil177
So you give the benefit of the doubt to the ref in every circumstance.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 5:07 pm to TheOcean
My only problem with cards is how yellows can accumulate through different games and result in a suspension (the 3 yellows in the Champions League definitely affected the final). If this rule has to stay it should be much tougher to result in suspension. The rest of the card system is fine with me as long as the ref is consistent.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 6:41 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
Sounds like a hipster conversation on reddit amongst many new soccer followers to me.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 6:43 pm to Dandy Lion
Well Grantland is pretty hipster
Posted on 9/28/12 at 6:49 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
We don't know each other, but please note that I wasn't insinuating that you were part and parcel.
This is a stupid arse comment on so many levels, that does have some validity, in about, oh I don't know, 8% of the time, maximum.
If, they were people who 'knew their shite', then they know that the horse's rear end known as Webb, Howard, conditioned greatly, the last WC final by not showing a straight red to Von Bommel, and later to De Jong. Especially, Von Bommel (De Jong's while much more theatrical, was debateable).
Somebody last week insisted on the term 'cynical', albeit using it improperly. Von Bommel's foul was the epitome of 'cynical'.
This is a stupid arse comment on so many levels, that does have some validity, in about, oh I don't know, 8% of the time, maximum.
If, they were people who 'knew their shite', then they know that the horse's rear end known as Webb, Howard, conditioned greatly, the last WC final by not showing a straight red to Von Bommel, and later to De Jong. Especially, Von Bommel (De Jong's while much more theatrical, was debateable).
Somebody last week insisted on the term 'cynical', albeit using it improperly. Von Bommel's foul was the epitome of 'cynical'.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 7:34 pm to Dandy Lion
Red card controversies are more common than goal line controversies...
Forgive me if I mistook what you were saying there.
Forgive me if I mistook what you were saying there.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 7:41 pm to Friend of OBUDan
OBUD, there is nothing to be forgiven. The word 'cynical' in football gets bandied about by Limeys on the 'tele' to no end.
Tactical is not cynical. Cynical is when you know damn well the punishment will not fit the crime.
The 'lance' or moment of play which we discussed, was tactical. He was rolling the dice.
Tactical is not cynical. Cynical is when you know damn well the punishment will not fit the crime.
The 'lance' or moment of play which we discussed, was tactical. He was rolling the dice.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 7:43 pm to Dandy Lion
I don't disagree with what you're saying, nor do I fully agree with what the Grantland guys were saying.
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be surprised if only 8% of red cards are debatable/soft decisions. I would imagine the percentage would be a little higher
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd be surprised if only 8% of red cards are debatable/soft decisions. I would imagine the percentage would be a little higher
Posted on 9/28/12 at 7:44 pm to Dandy Lion
quote:
Tactical is not cynical.
Agree 100% as I said in that thread.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 7:50 pm to LSUSOBEAST1
quote:
8%
I threw out this number to show that I fully believe it's not even ten percent of the time.
All decisions are technically 'soft', and involve the player's disposition in that given moment, how the play flow was evolving, how it had been evolving prior, especially as to how much attacking danger was being created, what had been 'overseen', verbally warned upon previously, the weight of the match (friendly, BS cup, vital match as to league standings, etc.), home or away, the crowd (which lends credence to your debatable/soft comment), etc.
Most all gets sorted out in the end (association, federation replays as to whether or not sanctionable, to what extent, and this goes for player, club and the official).
Posted on 9/28/12 at 8:12 pm to Dandy Lion
Oh well I'm totally with you on that issue, as I stated last week.
Posted on 9/28/12 at 8:43 pm to rsande2
quote:
Shelvey earned that red man, sorry........
This tells me we pretty much wouldn't agree on anything sport related.
This post was edited on 9/28/12 at 8:44 pm
Posted on 9/28/12 at 8:46 pm to cwil177
quote:
In response to the OP, a straight red card is usually merited. If you say that red cards will be punished less harshly than having your team play down a man, then the true punishment of a red is not felt and the players have more of an incentive to play dirty.
Usually but hardly always, see last Sunday for a perfect recent example. Also, no other sport has a penalty such as this but you don't see players running around intentionally trying to hurt each other just because they know they won't get sent off.
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