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Message
re: Game of Thrones Re-Read/Re-Watch Project (Multiple Book Spoilers)
Posted on 9/19/12 at 10:16 pm to Tiger in NY
Posted on 9/19/12 at 10:16 pm to Tiger in NY
quote:
I like the theory, and it is well thought out, but there is a whole lot of conjecture there. You are doing some real critical thinking. I like it.
I just don't trust Bloodraven. There hasn't been one person in this series who did trust him and that is telling imo. He just wasn't a good person in basically EVERYONES eyes. Now of course that doesn't mean he wasn't. Look at Jaime, everyone thinks he is the scum of the earth but we know better. But how many people could be like Jaime Lannister? How many could handle that stigma and criticism yet still remain a good man? I didn't think anyone could until GRRM wrote Jaime Lannister.
Bloodraven is angry and he wants justice served upon the people who cast him out imo.
Now I by no means think this is 100% accurate or the be all end all of ASOIAF theories, but its the only take on Bloodraven that makes sense to me based off what we know now.
quote:
Oh yeah, and while GRRM throws the stereotypical fairytale assumptions of good versus evil out the window with the regular citizens of Westeros, I do get the feeling he saves that for the COTF and Others (Good vs Evil). I think he'll maintain that, which is why I have a hard time believing that the COTF would join the Others.
Yet time and time again he proves to us that no one is purely "good" and no one is purely "evil". Yet he attempts to suck everyone of us into believing that the COTF are good and the Others are evil. Hes already made it clear there is no such thing in this world imo.
Everyone has their own agenda.
That is the only thing that has proved constant and reliable throughout this whole series. Everyone has their own power play.
This post was edited on 9/19/12 at 10:19 pm
3
Posted on 9/19/12 at 10:24 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Yet time and time again he proves to us that no one is purely "good" and no one is purely "evil"
As of yet, this has only played out with Humans.
quote:
Bloodraven is angry and he wants justice served upon the people who cast him out imo.
I don't trust him either, and think he is like the Saddam of Westeros. I think he will meet his match in Bran. Bran won't be turned easily if that is the goal.
Posted on 9/19/12 at 10:27 pm to Tiger in NY
quote:
I don't trust him either, and think he is like the Saddam of Westeros. I think he will meet his match in Bran. Bran won't be turned easily if that is the goal.
I agree with this 100%. Bran is a true Stark, the son of Eddard and the true heir to the North. He won't betray his people.
This post was edited on 9/19/12 at 10:28 pm
Posted on 9/19/12 at 11:20 pm to CottonWasKing
I agree that Bran will never betray his family. I just hope he isn't manipulated to the point where he causes serious harm to someone he loves. Bran has suffered enough. My theory as far as the CotF is that Bloodraven is building an army from the old world to destroy the men who have turned their backs on the old ways. I want Bloodraven to be an unsuspected hero, I'm just in Cottons boat where I trust everyone in history that doesn't trust him
Posted on 9/19/12 at 11:24 pm to Mr. Wayne
quote:
I agree that Bran will never betray his family. I just hope he isn't manipulated to the point where he causes serious harm to someone he loves. Bran has suffered enough
I think we will see a "bad bran" stage for awhile. He is already flirting with that idea (warging into Hodor for instance, Bran justifies it to himself but even he instinctually knows its wrong). His story will definitely be interesting from now on thats for sure.
Posted on 9/19/12 at 11:31 pm to CottonWasKing
He will be manipulated because he is so young and naive. He will accept the justifications for some time, before he finally takes responsibility. I just hope he doesn't unknowingly do some terrible act that cannot be taken back because I think it would weigh to heavily on him
Posted on 9/19/12 at 11:33 pm to CottonWasKing
quote:
Yet time and time again he proves to us that no one is purely "good" and no one is purely "evil". Yet he attempts to suck everyone of us into believing that the COTF are good and the Others are evil. Hes already made it clear there is no such thing in this world imo.
Case and point, the Wildlings. How often are we told early on in POVs that they're evil and should stay on the other side of the Wall. Then you have Ygritte, Val, Tormund, Mance (to a degree), Gilly, and others who are quite the opposite of that notion.
Now I wouldn't be surprised to find the Others of an evil nature, but that there are some that are not. Ones like Coldhands.
This post was edited on 9/19/12 at 11:34 pm
Posted on 9/19/12 at 11:48 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Case and point, the Wildlings. How often are we told early on in POVs that they're evil and should stay on the other side of the Wall. Then you have Ygritte, Val, Tormund, Mance (to a degree), Gilly, and others who are quite the opposite of that notion.
Exactly. But why put the "to a degree" next to Mance. I personally think he is a good man. Honorable in the same sense that Jaime is honorable. Yes he broke oaths but it wasn't for no reason. He saw the wildlings for who they really were just like Jon did but he didn't have the power to change the Night's Watch's policy like Jon. He refused to fight against the culture that saved his life, I can respect that. Then he did his damndest to lead his people, the people that put their trust and safety into his hands, to a safe place for Winter. Yes he attacked Westeros but he did it knowing that he was likely to fail but that it was also the only chance that he had to ensure the survival of his people.
Hell even the last time we saw Mance he was risking his life for the sake of his people. I know there are theories that say otherwise but taking the literature at face value it could easily be inferred that Mance went to Winterfell because he knew that Jon had taken his place as leader of the Wildlings and that they would go to war if Mance did not.
I think that Mance is as good of a man as this series has produced with the exception of maybe Barristan Selmy and Ned Stark. Even then you have to wonder if they (especially Barristan) were TOO honor bound and TOO restricted by their oaths. Remember Barristan forgave the murder of children and the rape and murder of their murder in the name of his vow..... I don't think Mance would've let that stand.
quote:
Now I wouldn't be surprised to find the Others of an evil nature, but that there are some that are not. Ones like Coldhands.
Well Coldhands wouldn't be an other I don't think. He seems to talk like a human while The Others voices are described as otherworldly which is something never mentioned when Sam and Bran are around Coldhands. He bears more of a resemblance to a wight or a person reanimated by a red priest in the name of R'hllor.
This post was edited on 9/19/12 at 11:52 pm
Posted on 9/20/12 at 9:04 am to CottonWasKing
It's clear that coldhands is Syrio Forel.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 9:09 am to rmc
quote:
It's clear that coldhands is Syrio Forel.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 10:10 am to Tiger in NY
The only description of Dawn I remember is from the ToJ scene:
"the hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder...he unsheathed Dawn, and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as Milkglass, alive with light."
Sounds way different than the Others' blades IMO.
I think Dawn is a one of a kind.
"the hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder...he unsheathed Dawn, and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as Milkglass, alive with light."
Sounds way different than the Others' blades IMO.
I think Dawn is a one of a kind.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 10:14 am to CottonWasKing
Have you read the dunk and egg novellas?
Posted on 9/20/12 at 11:56 am to MFn GIMP
quote:
I don't think there is anything major about that statement it just seems, to me, odd because there is no other reference to the Dothraki giving gifts to other people AND it seems very against their nature to do such a thing.
I always assumed that it reflected the good relationship Illyrio had with the Dothraki. As mentioned, the Pentoshi paid the khalasars off to stop them from invading. I think Illyrio, being the savvy businessman (and politico) that he is just took it a step further and established friendly relations with them.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 12:19 pm to Jubilee
quote:
I always assumed that it reflected the good relationship Illyrio had with the Dothraki. As mentioned, the Pentoshi paid the khalasars off to stop them from invading. I think Illyrio, being the savvy businessman (and politico) that he is just took it a step further and established friendly relations with them.
He has dealt with them probably in trade with looted goods from cities and slaves. He knows a lot about them and can deal with them. He worked and arranges the marriage between Dany and Drogo.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 4:18 pm to Mr. Wayne
Maybe I'm asking for a spoiler here, but obviously I don't care as I'm reading this thread. I'm like 20% done with DwD. I just read the chapter were Bran encounters what I assume is the Great Other (the thing entangled in weirwood tree roots). Are you guys suggesting that is Bloodraven? Is that verified? I assumed thats who it was when the 1001 eyes was mentioned in DwD. Because I'm pretty damn sure it was mentioned in the 2nd and maybe 1st Dunk and Egg short story.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 4:33 pm to rmc
It is verified that he is Bloodraven. It is not verified that he is the Great Other. We are just speculating there.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 7:06 pm to Mr. Wayne
Thing I caught on the reread is Illyrio is a Rhylor follower. I dont like or trust folks in the book affiliated with the red priest.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 7:10 pm to GeauxTigers18
I think a big part of Brans struggle will be to wipe out the red religion alltogether. I really hope Jon is not brought back with a red kiss. I dont really like when characters are brought back from the dead in the book in general.
Posted on 9/20/12 at 7:19 pm to GeauxTigers18
Also picked up something in the Dany chapter related to births. It appears Tyrion, Dany, and presumably Jon all had mothers that died on childbirth. Can you say three heads? Still skeptical on RT + LS = JS. Why would Rhaegar's siblings romanticise his extra marital affair. He died fighting for the woman he loved. Does not compute.
This post was edited on 9/20/12 at 7:20 pm
Posted on 9/20/12 at 7:25 pm to GeauxTigers18
quote:
Also picked up something in the Dany chapter related to births. It appears Tyrion, Dany, and presumably Jon all had mothers that died on childbirth
Damn.
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