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Message
re: Crackpot ASOIAF Theories SPOILERS
Posted on 9/30/13 at 11:50 am to NIH
Posted on 9/30/13 at 11:50 am to NIH
Why fight to death with Ned... Ned wasn't going to kill Lyanna or her baby. Ned killing babies is not his MO much less his sister's baby.
Also they keep mentioning vows... Seems that could only come Aerys or king when Aerys was killed. If my memory is correct Rheager died before Aerys.
It doesn't add up the Kingsguard was there to protect Lyanna/ Baby from Ned.
ETA:
Doesn't Visyrs have a more legitimate claim to the throne... why weren't they with them?
Also they keep mentioning vows... Seems that could only come Aerys or king when Aerys was killed. If my memory is correct Rheager died before Aerys.
It doesn't add up the Kingsguard was there to protect Lyanna/ Baby from Ned.
ETA:
quote:
Once Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon died they were there defending the king, baby Jon.
Doesn't Visyrs have a more legitimate claim to the throne... why weren't they with them?
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 11:54 am
3
Posted on 9/30/13 at 12:08 pm to Zephyrius
quote:
Doesn't Visyrs have a more legitimate claim to the throne... why weren't they with them?
Not if Rhaegar had married Lyanna. It has been shown that Targaryans have been known to take multiple wives. After Rhaegar died, any legitimate sons that he might have are next in line as heir. Then Viserys.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 12:10 pm to Zephyrius
Ned was going to take away Jon's birthright, that is what they were protecting.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 12:28 pm to NIH
I apologize if its already been mentioned or that I'm just being dense but do we know that Ned knew Lyanna was pregnant? Is this evidence that Benjen may have known and informed Ned? And ultimately why Benjen took the black to help hide the secret?
I just can't recall if there was a mention of Ned's reaction when he found that Lyanna was with child...
I just can't recall if there was a mention of Ned's reaction when he found that Lyanna was with child...
Posted on 9/30/13 at 12:30 pm to NIH
quote:
Ned was going to take away Jon's birthright, that is what they were protecting.
This seems like just another way of saying that they were protecting the king. Or do you mean that they were protecting Jon from Ned taking the Kingdom? Still seems like an almost negligible difference in meaning. Or am I missing the point entirely?
ETA: I guess I get it. You're just saying that they were protecting him from becoming a bastard. They were trying to maintain his being recognized in some way as royalty.
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 12:47 pm
Posted on 9/30/13 at 12:41 pm to Peazey
Yeah I didn't really have an argument against that since that is what Ned ultimately did... but then wouldn't that mean Lyanna would need to be killed. Ned was not going to kill Lyanna(I'm assuming Lyanna died from child birth)...
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:17 pm to Zephyrius
I was always confused about the ToJ details as well. He was outraged and disgusted at what Tywin and the Mountain did to Elia and her children. He didn't talk to Robert for quite some time when Robert had told Ned that he supported what Tywin did. That's what I never understood why the Kingsguard wanted to fight Ned to the death; Ned would never harm babies and children, especially his own nephew. Or did the Kingsguard know that they would basically rather die than serve Robert the Usurper??
With R+L=J, Ned was a traitor to Robert by raising the rightful king. As much as I think that Ned made some boneheaded decisions (as seen in AGoT) because of his honor, I have to respect what he did for Jon. Ned knew fully well the possibility of how much shite could go down if it were to ever come to light that Ned was raising/fostering a Targaryen claimant.
Here's another point I've been thinking about as well:
-Howland lives in Greywater Watch, so why didn't he raise Jon? Jon would've flown under the radar, and perhaps not had to be raised a bastard. Was Lyanna and Ned's promise two-fold, in that not only did she want Jon to be protected and his identity remain secret, but also that a Stark (Ned) must raise him as one of his own, alongside his cousins?
With R+L=J, Ned was a traitor to Robert by raising the rightful king. As much as I think that Ned made some boneheaded decisions (as seen in AGoT) because of his honor, I have to respect what he did for Jon. Ned knew fully well the possibility of how much shite could go down if it were to ever come to light that Ned was raising/fostering a Targaryen claimant.
Here's another point I've been thinking about as well:
-Howland lives in Greywater Watch, so why didn't he raise Jon? Jon would've flown under the radar, and perhaps not had to be raised a bastard. Was Lyanna and Ned's promise two-fold, in that not only did she want Jon to be protected and his identity remain secret, but also that a Stark (Ned) must raise him as one of his own, alongside his cousins?
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:30 pm to ladytiger118
quote:
I was always confused about the ToJ details as well. He was outraged and disgusted at what Tywin and the Mountain did to Elia and her children. He didn't talk to Robert for quite some time when Robert had told Ned that he supported what Tywin did. That's what I never understood why the Kingsguard wanted to fight Ned to the death; Ned would never harm babies and children, especially his own nephew. Or did the Kingsguard know that they would basically rather die than serve Robert the Usurper??
Here is how I think of it: we know that Robert felt until his dying day that Lyanna was stolen and raped by Rhaegar. Why are we assuming that Ned did not feel this way forever? It seems to me that if Robert and Ned were buddies and fought all through the war together, Ned possibly thought the same as Robert about what happened to Lyanna. So when he gets to the ToJ, the Kingsguard are opposing him because they want to protect the king's blood, but Ned wants to get his sister who was wrongfully taken and raped. It wasn't until he sees her and she tells him to promise her that he will take her child who was born of love and not rape, and to not tell Robert the truth of his parentage because she knows how Robert will feel about it, that he changed his mind about the situation.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:34 pm to ladytiger118
Tower of Joy Scene:
So, Ned defeats Rheager; then runs to Dragonstone; then the tower of Joy... It just doesn't add up if his purpose was to "deny Jon his birthright"... seems he would gone to Tower of Joy/ search for Lyanna first.
The idea that their vow was to kill Ned intrigues me... They knew Ned would come for Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and there they waited.
ETA:
If Ned knew Jon existed why would he think they would be with the Queen and Viserys the future heir?
quote:
“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”
So, Ned defeats Rheager; then runs to Dragonstone; then the tower of Joy... It just doesn't add up if his purpose was to "deny Jon his birthright"... seems he would gone to Tower of Joy/ search for Lyanna first.
The idea that their vow was to kill Ned intrigues me... They knew Ned would come for Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and there they waited.
ETA:
quote:
Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
If Ned knew Jon existed why would he think they would be with the Queen and Viserys the future heir?
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 1:38 pm
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:43 pm to Zephyrius
I don't think Ned knew about Jon beforehand, and didn't find out until he went in the tower. But, it does make you wonder why they weren't with Viserys, which makes R+L=J even more likely.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:46 pm to Zephyrius
Yeah, some of the details of the lead up to the Tower of Joy scene intrigue me.
How long after the Siege of King's Landing was the Tower of Joy standoff?
Where exactly is the Tower of Joy? I'm assuming it's in Dorne near Starfall.
Obviously, protecting the heir to the throne makes perfect sense for the Kingsguard to be there, especially if Rheagar instructed them to defend his bride and heir, but why did they have to kill Ned? Ned was Lyanna's brother, if anyone would help them protect the new King it would be his uncle. Granted, his uncle was the Userper's field general and right hand man.
How long after the Siege of King's Landing was the Tower of Joy standoff?
Where exactly is the Tower of Joy? I'm assuming it's in Dorne near Starfall.
Obviously, protecting the heir to the throne makes perfect sense for the Kingsguard to be there, especially if Rheagar instructed them to defend his bride and heir, but why did they have to kill Ned? Ned was Lyanna's brother, if anyone would help them protect the new King it would be his uncle. Granted, his uncle was the Userper's field general and right hand man.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 1:54 pm to kingbob
Do we have evidence that Rhaeger instructed the Kingsguard? I guess if Rhaeger was the only one that knew that Lyanna was there... but does that hold up?
My evidence against is that they said "vows" and not orders but I might just be parsing words to support my intrigue... Seems you make vows to a king...
My evidence against is that they said "vows" and not orders but I might just be parsing words to support my intrigue... Seems you make vows to a king...
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 1:57 pm
Posted on 9/30/13 at 2:42 pm to Zephyrius
quote:
So, Ned defeats Rheager; then runs to Dragonstone; then the tower of Joy... It just doesn't add up if his purpose was to "deny Jon his birthright"...
Ned left King's Landing to lift the siege at Storm's Ends. Stannis was sent to Dragonstone.
The King's guard was protecting their new born king.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 3:11 pm to TigerintheNO
Thanks for clarifying I meant Storm's End...
Still doesn't explain why they had to fight Ned to the death... It appears he has no idea that Jon is born and he wasn't going to kill Lyanna or the baby when he found out.
Still doesn't explain why they had to fight Ned to the death... It appears he has no idea that Jon is born and he wasn't going to kill Lyanna or the baby when he found out.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 4:30 pm to Josh Fenderman
quote:
we know that Robert felt until his dying day that Lyanna was stolen and raped by Rhaegar. Why are we assuming that Ned did not feel this way forever?
When Ned is backtracking through Jon Arryn's last days and is visiting the whore houses, he thinks to himself that Rhaegar probably would not have visited these establishments. He thought somewhat highly of Rhaegar, why would someone who's sister was raped by this person think this? It's obvious he had enough time with Lyanna to learn the truth.
It didn't matter what Lyanna or Ned wanted, the Kingsguard were there to protect the baby King and his right as the next in line in the Targaryen Dynasty. Ned was there to deny this and that is why they fought him.
Lyanna made Ned promise to take care of Jon as his own and protect him which was different than what her protectors wanted, ie. to install Jon as the next king.
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 4:32 pm
Posted on 9/30/13 at 4:35 pm to Zephyrius
quote:
The idea that their vow was to kill Ned intrigues me
Why do you assume this? They also swore a vow to protect the royal blood. That would make sense since there is royal blood in the tower.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 4:41 pm to NIH
quote:
He thought somewhat highly of Rhaegar, why would someone who's sister was raped by this person think this? It's obvious he had enough time with Lyanna to learn the truth.
I think we are thinking the same, it seems to me that Ned may have somewhat believed what Robert had said up until he learned the truth from Lyanna
quote:
Lyanna made Ned promise to take care of Jon as his own and protect him which was different than what her protectors wanted, ie. to install Jon as the next king.
Right, but the war was over by this point was it not? Rhaegar dead and Robert was being installed as the new king. Kingsguard were there to protect the rightful king and possibly assume that Ned wanted to do Robert's bidding since they fought side by side through the war. It wasn't until after Ned climbs the tower that he sees Lyanna and she makes him promise.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 5:15 pm to Josh Fenderman
quote:
Why do you assume this? They also swore a vow to protect the royal blood. That would make sense since there is royal blood in the tower.
The timing of it all just doesn't mesh with me...
quote:
I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.
“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
Your best warriors aren't at the battle to fight with Rhaeger and match against Robert Baratheon? Send them to protect a babe with the war in doubt? A babe that on one knew about? There was no imminent threat... It all just doesn't add up.
This post was edited on 9/30/13 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 9/30/13 at 6:23 pm to Zephyrius
quote:
Why fight to death with Ned... Ned wasn't going to kill Lyanna or her baby. Ned killing babies is not his MO much less his sister's baby.
Well, Ned was loyal to an absolute fault to Robert. I don't think they were concerned that Ned would kill Lyanna or Jon, but he very well may have turned them back over to Robert, which would be death for Jon. If Lyanna hadn't died and Robert hasn't done the "dragon-spawn" comment to Ned, I honestly think Ned would have returned Lyanna to Robert. None of the Kingsguard knew of their temporary falling out after the Sack of King's Landing, so I would have fought against Ned too. I think Lyanna trusted her other brothers more than Ned since he put honor above all else, and that's why she had to get the vow from him before she passed. Ned probably would have given a live Lyanna and Jon over if it weren't for the events of King's Landing, thinking that he could convince Robert to let the child live his days at the Wall. Once he saw that though, he knew there was no convincing Robert.
Posted on 9/30/13 at 6:28 pm to Zephyrius
quote:
I apologize if its already been mentioned or that I'm just being dense but do we know that Ned knew Lyanna was pregnant? Is this evidence that Benjen may have known and informed Ned? And ultimately why Benjen took the black to help hide the secret?
I seriously doubt anyone would have told Ned about it. He was Robert's closest ally and best friend, and one well known for putting honor above all things. If I was on the opposing side, Ned would have been one of the last people I'd trust with that knowledge.
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