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Posted on 10/17/12 at 9:17 am to SCTmo
While I don't think Tyrion is Aerys's son, I think the logic some people are using is flawed. I keep reading that Tyrion is most like Tywin out of all his children. Well, even if he is Aerys's son, he could still grow up to be just like Tywin. It's the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Tyrion still grew up watching Tywin. He could model his entire intellect after him.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 9:20 am to SCTmo
quote:
After SOS, I find it hard to believe anyone could think Tyrion was anything but Tywin's son (their last exchange so perfectly reflecting each other). However, Martin has added in that Tyrion had dragon dreams (this was from ADWD, right?) and the Joanna tidbit. Many had already thought Tyrion would be one of the 3 heads of the dragon (likely with Jon and Dany) and since Jon/Dany are more than likely Targaryen descendants, so too must Tyrion be. Not saying I agree with it (don't necessarily believe the three heads must be Targaryens OR that Tyrion will be one of the three heads), but that's what leads to the speculation.
Does the third head have to be Targaryen? Just thought it more indicated a dynasty. Wasn't even thinking of Jon as a head, and was more thinking that Tyrion was one of the heads, even if he isn't directly related.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 9:29 am to DestrehanTiger
quote:
While I don't think Tyrion is Aerys's son, I think the logic some people are using is flawed. I keep reading that Tyrion is most like Tywin out of all his children. Well, even if he is Aerys's son, he could still grow up to be just like Tywin. It's the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Tyrion still grew up watching Tywin. He could model his entire intellect after him.
That's quite a fair and valid point.
I think Tyrion being Aerys's son would most piss me off because I'm sick of these secret Targaryens popping up everywhere. R+L = J was perfectly foreshadowed and makes sense from the very first book. Tyrion being a secret Targaryen would be far less reasonable to piece together early on. There is the mention to his whiter hair than his bro and sis (and yes, hair does seem to be important in identifying lineage) - but that's it until the dragon dreams are brought up (though now that I'm thinking it, perhaps his studying was once compared to Rhaegar?).
Regardless, I think that if he's revealed to be a Targaryen it justifies Tywin in many ways (when I always felt the point Martin was trying to make was that Tyrion could have been Tywin's greatest ally if he had only loved him like his brother and sister). Perhaps that point still holds true if he's an illegitimate bastard, but it would seem so far out of left field (based on the first three books).
Posted on 10/17/12 at 9:31 am to OMLandshark
quote:
Does the third head have to be Targaryen?
Yeah, I don't know on that one. Most think yes. I tend to believe what you did. That lineage doesn't matter and could be anyone. Still, it's one of the points people check off to "proving" Tyrion is a Targaryen.
If not Jon, who do you have as the third head? I am under the assumption that fake Aegon is not one of them (chalking him up as the mummer's dragon). I figured PTWP, Azor, and three-headed dragon would all tie together through Jon.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 10:12 am to SCTmo
Glass, if Arya is Jon's Nissa Nissa, I will cry my eyes out
Posted on 10/17/12 at 10:16 am to Carson123987
quote:
Glass, if Arya is Jon's Nissa Nissa, I will cry my eyes out
At this point I can't rule anything out.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 1:45 pm to SCTmo
quote:
I guess the fact that she was not a POV character until AFFC could contribute to that fact, but I never much got fear of Tyrion until Joff was killed in SOS. Perhaps ordering the Kingsguard member (name escapes me) to kill Tyrion in COK could have been an indication of some personal fear, but I just never saw it that way. Of course, after reading AFFC I can see that view, but in the moment it seemed like she had disdain for Tyrion like her father did, and she wanted him out of her hair primarily because he was usurping her power - nothing about her fear that Tyrion would kill her.
I am still not convinced the Cersei ordered Moore to kill Tyrion. In he POV in Crows, she never thinks about how everything would have been better if Moore had just done what she told him to do and kill Tyrion. Joff and her father would still be alive.I think that she would have been upset that somebody failed her again, she spends a lot of time bemoaning all the people who have failed her. She probably would have brought up Moore and his failure to kill Tyrion.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 2:15 pm to SCTmo
quote:
I am under the assumption that fake Aegon is not one of them (chalking him up as the mummer's dragon). I figured PTWP, Azor, and three-headed dragon would all tie together through Jon.
Mummer =/= fake
It just means Aegon is Illyrio & Varys creation & puppet. Aegon IS a dragon, IMO. It's just a matter or Targaryen or Blackfyre. I think he will control Rhaegal or Viserion.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 2:21 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:
Me, Cotton, Carson, and a couple others (forgive me) have heavily debated that she'll be Jon's Nissa Nissa.
Said this five months ago on this board. Hate I missed all the discussions due to not keeping up with this mega-thread.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 2:29 pm to Calen50
quote:
Lollys (forget the exact spelling of her name) is raped on the way back to the RK. She becomes with child. Is married off to now Lord Bronn. She bears a child that they name Tyrion. How is this not forshadowing Tyrion could have been a child that came from Aerys possibly "raping" Joanna?
Say what? Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 4:35 pm to CottonWasKing
Posted on 10/17/12 at 4:53 pm to PsychTiger
quote:
This thread still comes up 4th if you search ASOIAF theories on google.
We are the shite. GRRM has to see this eventually
Posted on 10/17/12 at 5:15 pm to Carson123987
Maybe he won't hate me so much after he discovers this thread..... Cause I'm convinced the fricker hates me
Posted on 10/17/12 at 5:40 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Tywin was Hand of the King for another 8 years after Tyrion was born. If Tywin left right before or soon after Tyrion was born, then you may have a case. But no, the theory is complete bullshite and insulting from things directly told to us and hinted.
Just where in the world are you getting this 8 year figure? The timeline isn't addressed in the books and Martin has refused to give any further details when asked directly. Just RAFO.
Its not all coming from ADWD either. I picked up the hints in my first read of AGOT. Dragon dreams, silver hair when all Lannisters have golden hair, Tywin's abrupt resignation and later betrayal. Aerys' fear of Tywin says a lot.
And you do remember Tywin's dying words? "You're no son of mine."
Posted on 10/17/12 at 5:45 pm to Calen50
quote:
Tyrion could have been a child that came from Aerys possibly "raping" Joanna?
Tywin would have killed Tyrion if he suspected this. If not whil Aerys was alive, certainly after the fall of the Targs........
(unless he wanted to use the royal blood to his benefit..........Hhhhmmmm)
Posted on 10/17/12 at 6:23 pm to shinerfan
quote:
Just where in the world are you getting this 8 year figure? The timeline isn't addressed in the books and Martin has refused to give any further details when asked directly. Just RAFO.
The wikipedia page, and that seems to be pretty accurate. The Hand after him merely lasted a year, and Jon Connington was 21 when he became Hand of the King. I think he would have specifically mentioned that Tywin quit being Hand as soon as his wife died and Tyrion was born. Plus we know for a concrete fact that he was still the Hand when Tywin asked Aerys for Cersei's hand in marriage, and Tyrion was around 4 then.
quote:
Its not all coming from ADWD either. I picked up the hints in my first read of AGOT. Dragon dreams, silver hair when all Lannisters have golden hair, Tywin's abrupt resignation and later betrayal. Aerys' fear of Tywin says a lot.
Being afraid of Tywin doesn't mean anything, since everyone in the Seven Kingdoms was afraid of Tywin Lannister. Aerys had fricked Tywin over enough without raping his wife, which led to a dwarf that killed his wife. Tywin would have quit being Hand immediately if his wife was raped by Aerys, because he wouldn't stand for a slap in the face like that one.
Plus Tyrion doesn't have silver hair, just slightly lighter hair than his siblings, who are twins and said to be absolute split images of one another to where some people had trouble telling them apart when they were kids.
quote:
And you do remember Tywin's dying words? "You're no son of mine."
Do you remember Tyrion's next phrase: "Now that's where you're wrong, Father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small." Not to mention the fact that people who actually know Tyrion well (aside from Jaime and Cersei) think that he was Tywin's true son. The theory is absolute bullshite.
This post was edited on 10/17/12 at 6:25 pm
Posted on 10/17/12 at 6:25 pm to Sid in Lakeshore
quote:
Tywin would have killed Tyrion if he suspected this. If not whil Aerys was alive, certainly after the fall of the Targs........
This too. He would have made it look accidental of course, but then he could have gotten away with kinslaying since Tyrion wouldn't technically been kin to him.
Posted on 10/17/12 at 6:50 pm to OMLandshark
Just going on personality profiles of the families, but Tyrion is much too composed to be of Targ blood. First, he doesn't exhibit the madness that plagued many Targs. Next, he examines the ramifications of his actions. He doesn't go sleep with a princess of the north and start a war. Yes, he is passionate, but he controls it.
Posted on 10/18/12 at 12:41 pm to shinerfan
quote:
And you do remember Tywin's dying words? "You're no son of mine."
That's what sticks out in my mind. I had thought that Tyrion might be the product of Tywin being cuckolded by Aerys (or Aerys raping Tywin's wife). It's pretty clear that Tyrion's mom was in fact Tywin's wife, and with all of the stories of Tyrion's birth anything else just wouldn't seem right. If Tywin knew, he might keep it a secret to avoid the embarrassment to his house, but it's clear that - even for all his talk of family and bloodline - he despised Tyrion.
Also, Tyrion not being Tywin's actual son means Tyrion is not the occursed kinslayer, which preserves his ability to play a major role.
The thing I can't jibe with Tywin knowing Tyrion is not his own blood is the Tysha story where I think he specifically tells Tyrion he is a Lannister.
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