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Message
Alternative Fuel Credit (5-2-12 Update)
Posted on 5/2/12 at 10:07 am
Posted on 5/2/12 at 10:07 am
UPDATE:
Just got off the phone with the Income Audit Division of the DOR. There will be no more credits issued for E85 Flex Fuel vehicles.
All of those who have received the credit for "Flex Fuel" vehicles will have to repay it.
I questioned whether the taxpayers who have to repay the credits can repay in installments without penalty and interest as the DOR's Customer Service Department was advising taxpayers who called to file amended returns claiming the credit for the Flex Fuel vehicles. I was then told that this type of payment arrangement was already being discussed....nothing final yet, but they do realize that many of the taxpayers who have filed for and received the credit did so as directed by the Customer Service Department.
Cathy
DISREGARD THIS POST....SEE POST BELOW IN WHICH THE HEAD ATTORNEY AT DOR TOLD ME THIS EVENING THAT IT IS NOW THE OFFICIAL POLICY TO ACCEPT THE E85 FLEX FUEL VEHICLES AS BEING ELIGIBLE FOR THE CREDIT. NOTE TO SELF: START LOOKING FOR PROPERTY IN TEXAS WHERE THEY DON'T PAY STATE INCOME TAXES!
Just got off the phone with the Income Audit Division of the DOR. There will be no more credits issued for E85 Flex Fuel vehicles.
All of those who have received the credit for "Flex Fuel" vehicles will have to repay it.
I questioned whether the taxpayers who have to repay the credits can repay in installments without penalty and interest as the DOR's Customer Service Department was advising taxpayers who called to file amended returns claiming the credit for the Flex Fuel vehicles. I was then told that this type of payment arrangement was already being discussed....nothing final yet, but they do realize that many of the taxpayers who have filed for and received the credit did so as directed by the Customer Service Department.
Cathy
DISREGARD THIS POST....SEE POST BELOW IN WHICH THE HEAD ATTORNEY AT DOR TOLD ME THIS EVENING THAT IT IS NOW THE OFFICIAL POLICY TO ACCEPT THE E85 FLEX FUEL VEHICLES AS BEING ELIGIBLE FOR THE CREDIT. NOTE TO SELF: START LOOKING FOR PROPERTY IN TEXAS WHERE THEY DON'T PAY STATE INCOME TAXES!
This post was edited on 5/2/12 at 7:38 pm
6
Posted on 5/2/12 at 10:19 am to frb1951
I can't wait to file a freedom of information act request to see all of the intra-office correspondence on this.
Posted on 5/2/12 at 10:24 am to frb1951
Cathy,
Why did they include exhibits showing E85's on the new emergency declaration?
Also, i think they are lying about going back on people who have already claimed the credit. I think they are just going to stop it as of april 30th.
This is illegal as hell. I just looked up those vehicles on the new exhibits. THERE IS NO VEHICLE IN THE WORLD SOLD AT RETAIL THAT COULD NOT ALSO RUN ON GAS IN AN EMERGENCY. so the declaration excludes every vehicle. Thus , nobody could claim this.
Why did they include exhibits showing E85's on the new emergency declaration?
Also, i think they are lying about going back on people who have already claimed the credit. I think they are just going to stop it as of april 30th.
This is illegal as hell. I just looked up those vehicles on the new exhibits. THERE IS NO VEHICLE IN THE WORLD SOLD AT RETAIL THAT COULD NOT ALSO RUN ON GAS IN AN EMERGENCY. so the declaration excludes every vehicle. Thus , nobody could claim this.
Posted on 5/2/12 at 10:41 am to Roofdog
What about the april 30, 2012 effective date.... ? What Good does it do to post a date?
Posted on 5/2/12 at 2:22 pm to frb1951
The State is so frickin clueless... This shite pisses me off to a point where I will FIGHT IT... 
Posted on 5/2/12 at 2:44 pm to DuckSlayer22
I will try to answer some of your questions, however, keep in mind I do not work for the DOR and have no intension of ever working for the DOR neither am I a tax attorney. I have been self-employed for 40 years now with an accounting and tax service business.
DandyPimp,
I like your idea! Please share with us the results of the correspondence you receive in regard to the Alternative Fuel Credit. As I assume you have read the Emergency Declaration, you might find that the intra-office correspondence parallels the Declaration in as far as making sense.
Roofdog,
Your questions are very understandable, however, you need to be filled in on the background of the yearly “Alternative Fuel Vehicles and Advanced Technology Vehicles” listing that the Department of Energy puts out. The Feds first established the Clear Air Act of 1963, which was followed by the Clear Air Act of 1970 that was dramatically revised and expanded and also provided EPA with a broader authority to implement and enforce regulations reducing air pollutant emissions. The Clean Air Act is a federal law covering the entire country. The EPA sets limits on certain air pollutants such as those we hear much about in the Baton Rouge area.
The EPA can issue sanctions against a state regarding air pollution and can even take over enforcing the Clean Air Act in a particular area. As such, the EPA can dictate what vehicles Federal and State agencies must purchase when buying fleet automobiles. The list that was attached to the Declaration of Emergency is simply a list that the EPA has compiled that meets the omission standards that the EPA has established. In regard to the E85 vehicles, these standards are met IF the Alternative Fuel is used rather than gasoline or diesel. Currently, Louisiana has two (2) fueling stations that pumps E85 fuel. One is located in Bossier City and the other is located in Ferriday. Another one is on the horizon at Fort Polk but it’s not operational as of yet.
With the above paragraph being said, does it make much sense that the EPA mandates State and Federal agencies to purchase either E85 or other automobiles on the list when pumping stations are so limited especially for E85 vehicles? Nope….but there is not much in the tax code or Federal government that makes sense any more…..my hair turned gray many, many years ago and it wasn’t because of my age.
On the same list that was made a part of the Declaration you will find electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles listed. The electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles were the type of vehicles that qualified a taxpayer for a credit on their Federal returns. E85 vehicles were never part of a Federal tax credit.
Bottom line…..was including the Department of Energy’s list a good choice for the Declaration. Not no, but…..you get the picture!
Inasmuch as the department “lying about going back on people who have already claimed the credit”, the DOR is dealing with public funds that cannot be given away. Therefore, the DOR legally cannot let some taxpayers receive the credit and not let others do the same…..to do so would amount to giving away State funds which again, they cannot do. The State has 7 years to recall the refunds. I would imagine it will happen a lot sooner, however, if someone slips through the cracks momentarily I feel sure they will be notified within the time frame of 7 years.
The April 30th date is merely the date that the Declaration of Emergency was officially published. The Department cannot arbitrarily say the credits were valid up until April 30th and are not valid after April 30th . The DOR must issue rules and regulations to enforce laws established by the Louisiana Legislature. This Declaration of Emergency was merely issued as a way of saying “oooooops, we made a mistake” and to make it clear (or rather try to make it clear) that E85 vehicles do not and never have qualified for the credit. Pursuant to the Revised Statute, a Declaration of Emergency must state a date.
The very title “Declaration of Emergency” suggests that something unforeseen has arisen and must be given special attention. The fact that refunds were issued improperly is definitely a cause for a “Declaration of Emergency”.
I understand your point (although I haven’t researched to verify) about no vehicle in the world sold at retail that could not also run on gas in an emergency……but your statement should further explain why the Flex Fuel vehicles don’t qualify for the credit. Flex Fuel vehicles are made to run either 100% on gasoline or a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline…..there is no “just in case of an emergency” in the design of a Flex Fuel vehicle.
I wish the outcome could have been different, however, because of closely monitoring the original law in 1991 (after the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed by the Feds), I couldn’t see how Flex Fuel vehicles would qualify for the credit. Again, I feel what led to the confusion was the wording of the Revenue Bulletin 09-029 that was issued after the 2009 legislative session increased the credit and made other changes to Louisiana’s law for an Alternative Fuel Credit vehicle……. Once again just another example of a poorly written document such as the recently issued Declaration of Emergency.
P.S. DuckSlayer22....I don't blame you one bit! Good luck....if you win, let us know....just bought one the other day myself!
DandyPimp,
I like your idea! Please share with us the results of the correspondence you receive in regard to the Alternative Fuel Credit. As I assume you have read the Emergency Declaration, you might find that the intra-office correspondence parallels the Declaration in as far as making sense.
Roofdog,
Your questions are very understandable, however, you need to be filled in on the background of the yearly “Alternative Fuel Vehicles and Advanced Technology Vehicles” listing that the Department of Energy puts out. The Feds first established the Clear Air Act of 1963, which was followed by the Clear Air Act of 1970 that was dramatically revised and expanded and also provided EPA with a broader authority to implement and enforce regulations reducing air pollutant emissions. The Clean Air Act is a federal law covering the entire country. The EPA sets limits on certain air pollutants such as those we hear much about in the Baton Rouge area.
The EPA can issue sanctions against a state regarding air pollution and can even take over enforcing the Clean Air Act in a particular area. As such, the EPA can dictate what vehicles Federal and State agencies must purchase when buying fleet automobiles. The list that was attached to the Declaration of Emergency is simply a list that the EPA has compiled that meets the omission standards that the EPA has established. In regard to the E85 vehicles, these standards are met IF the Alternative Fuel is used rather than gasoline or diesel. Currently, Louisiana has two (2) fueling stations that pumps E85 fuel. One is located in Bossier City and the other is located in Ferriday. Another one is on the horizon at Fort Polk but it’s not operational as of yet.
With the above paragraph being said, does it make much sense that the EPA mandates State and Federal agencies to purchase either E85 or other automobiles on the list when pumping stations are so limited especially for E85 vehicles? Nope….but there is not much in the tax code or Federal government that makes sense any more…..my hair turned gray many, many years ago and it wasn’t because of my age.
On the same list that was made a part of the Declaration you will find electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles listed. The electric and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles were the type of vehicles that qualified a taxpayer for a credit on their Federal returns. E85 vehicles were never part of a Federal tax credit.
Bottom line…..was including the Department of Energy’s list a good choice for the Declaration. Not no, but…..you get the picture!
Inasmuch as the department “lying about going back on people who have already claimed the credit”, the DOR is dealing with public funds that cannot be given away. Therefore, the DOR legally cannot let some taxpayers receive the credit and not let others do the same…..to do so would amount to giving away State funds which again, they cannot do. The State has 7 years to recall the refunds. I would imagine it will happen a lot sooner, however, if someone slips through the cracks momentarily I feel sure they will be notified within the time frame of 7 years.
The April 30th date is merely the date that the Declaration of Emergency was officially published. The Department cannot arbitrarily say the credits were valid up until April 30th and are not valid after April 30th . The DOR must issue rules and regulations to enforce laws established by the Louisiana Legislature. This Declaration of Emergency was merely issued as a way of saying “oooooops, we made a mistake” and to make it clear (or rather try to make it clear) that E85 vehicles do not and never have qualified for the credit. Pursuant to the Revised Statute, a Declaration of Emergency must state a date.
The very title “Declaration of Emergency” suggests that something unforeseen has arisen and must be given special attention. The fact that refunds were issued improperly is definitely a cause for a “Declaration of Emergency”.
I understand your point (although I haven’t researched to verify) about no vehicle in the world sold at retail that could not also run on gas in an emergency……but your statement should further explain why the Flex Fuel vehicles don’t qualify for the credit. Flex Fuel vehicles are made to run either 100% on gasoline or a mixture of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline…..there is no “just in case of an emergency” in the design of a Flex Fuel vehicle.
I wish the outcome could have been different, however, because of closely monitoring the original law in 1991 (after the Clean Air Act of 1990 was passed by the Feds), I couldn’t see how Flex Fuel vehicles would qualify for the credit. Again, I feel what led to the confusion was the wording of the Revenue Bulletin 09-029 that was issued after the 2009 legislative session increased the credit and made other changes to Louisiana’s law for an Alternative Fuel Credit vehicle……. Once again just another example of a poorly written document such as the recently issued Declaration of Emergency.
P.S. DuckSlayer22....I don't blame you one bit! Good luck....if you win, let us know....just bought one the other day myself!
Posted on 5/2/12 at 3:28 pm to frb1951
I'm confused....
1)E85=Flex Fuel?
2)The Emergency Declaration actually includes a listing of qualifying vehicles (including FF) does it not?
3)In reading the ED where does it say that flex fuel doesn't qualify?
4)Is your conclusion that they (FF) don't qualify reached only by your conversations with DOR folks?
1)E85=Flex Fuel?
2)The Emergency Declaration actually includes a listing of qualifying vehicles (including FF) does it not?
3)In reading the ED where does it say that flex fuel doesn't qualify?
4)Is your conclusion that they (FF) don't qualify reached only by your conversations with DOR folks?
Posted on 5/2/12 at 3:45 pm to failuretocommunicate
Can anyone recommend an attorney that deals with Louisiana taxes or this type of case???
Posted on 5/2/12 at 3:46 pm to frb1951
frb1951--
I have a contact in the Tax Administration Division of the Louisiana Department of Revenue that I e-mailed after reading your initial post today. According to this source, the Office Audit Division was instructed to deny the claims for the credit in April. However, since the 04/30 ruling, they have been instructed to allow the credit for the vehicles on the list, and they are attempting to identify returns where the credit was disallowed and reprocess those returns to allow the credit.
Understand that I am not trying to discredit your post in any form, but just showing that there is still confusion with the DOR on how this credit impacts E85 vehicles after this "emergency" ruling.
I have a contact in the Tax Administration Division of the Louisiana Department of Revenue that I e-mailed after reading your initial post today. According to this source, the Office Audit Division was instructed to deny the claims for the credit in April. However, since the 04/30 ruling, they have been instructed to allow the credit for the vehicles on the list, and they are attempting to identify returns where the credit was disallowed and reprocess those returns to allow the credit.
Understand that I am not trying to discredit your post in any form, but just showing that there is still confusion with the DOR on how this credit impacts E85 vehicles after this "emergency" ruling.
Posted on 5/2/12 at 4:04 pm to jjpt
Jjpt,
No problem whatsoever!
Just got an email from the legal department. Will post it when I get back to my office in a couple of hours!
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than my findings above!
I am going crazy, crazy, crazy!!!!
No problem whatsoever!
Just got an email from the legal department. Will post it when I get back to my office in a couple of hours!
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than my findings above!
I am going crazy, crazy, crazy!!!!
Posted on 5/2/12 at 4:47 pm to frb1951
The following is the legal department's reply to my email. I received it today. Their reply is on top....my original email to them is underneath their reply. When I talked with an Income Auditor this morning, she checked with the legal department before the told me what I had reported above. This whole situation is absolutely absurd.
Dear Cathy,
The statute does not preclude or prohibit flex fuel vehicles from qualifying for the credit. Further, the rule creates a rebuttable presumption that if a flex fuel vehicle is listed on the website of the Department of Energy, then the vehicle is one that meets the standards set forth in the statute and thereby qualifies it for the credit.
Thanks,
Policy Services Division
-----Original Message-----
From: Website Technical Questions
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 7:41 AM
To: Louisiana Tax Policy
Subject: FW: Meaning of Emergency Ruling
-----Original Message-----
From: Cathy [mailto:cdauthier@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 12:24 AM
To: Website Technical Questions
Subject: Meaning of Emergency Ruling
As.a tax practitioner of 39 years, I am even more confused with the Emergency Ruling in regard to the Alternative Fuel Tax Credit. There are many more practitioners in Louisiana like me. In Part I, paragraph B, the following appears: "The credit is also available when a taxpayer purchases a vehicle that its original and only use is to operate on an alternative fuel." I understand this sentence to mean that Flex Fuel Vehicles don't qualify for the credit.
However, the following phrase is used when describing the list of Alternative Fuel Vehicles by the Department of Energy"........"rebuttable presumption".
I, along with many others need a straight forward reply to our question. Do E85 Flex Fuel Vehicles qualify for the credit?
Thanks!
Cathy Dauthier
O'kay....me again....I'm glad to know a "rebuttable presumption" means "there's no doubt about it". LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS ABSURD. I HAVE NEVER IN MY CAREER SEEN ANYTHING AS BIZARRE AS THIS!
P.S. Please know I am not seeking new clients. I'll probably retire very soon!
Dear Cathy,
The statute does not preclude or prohibit flex fuel vehicles from qualifying for the credit. Further, the rule creates a rebuttable presumption that if a flex fuel vehicle is listed on the website of the Department of Energy, then the vehicle is one that meets the standards set forth in the statute and thereby qualifies it for the credit.
Thanks,
Policy Services Division
-----Original Message-----
From: Website Technical Questions
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 7:41 AM
To: Louisiana Tax Policy
Subject: FW: Meaning of Emergency Ruling
-----Original Message-----
From: Cathy [mailto:cdauthier@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 12:24 AM
To: Website Technical Questions
Subject: Meaning of Emergency Ruling
As.a tax practitioner of 39 years, I am even more confused with the Emergency Ruling in regard to the Alternative Fuel Tax Credit. There are many more practitioners in Louisiana like me. In Part I, paragraph B, the following appears: "The credit is also available when a taxpayer purchases a vehicle that its original and only use is to operate on an alternative fuel." I understand this sentence to mean that Flex Fuel Vehicles don't qualify for the credit.
However, the following phrase is used when describing the list of Alternative Fuel Vehicles by the Department of Energy"........"rebuttable presumption".
I, along with many others need a straight forward reply to our question. Do E85 Flex Fuel Vehicles qualify for the credit?
Thanks!
Cathy Dauthier
O'kay....me again....I'm glad to know a "rebuttable presumption" means "there's no doubt about it". LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS ABSURD. I HAVE NEVER IN MY CAREER SEEN ANYTHING AS BIZARRE AS THIS!
P.S. Please know I am not seeking new clients. I'll probably retire very soon!
Posted on 5/2/12 at 6:35 pm to frb1951
Ok folks, It is now official as official can get. I just received a phone call from the head of the legal department with the Louisiana Department of Revenue. E85 Flex Fuel vehicles definitely qualify for the credit. File those amended returns!
The legal department was in between a rock and a hard place as the intent of the original bill was not what was passed by the legislature, however, I have personally seen on other occasions where legislators purposely change a law by adding or deleting a word which in turn changes the original intent of the law...in other words, the actual law that was voted on by the legislature ended up not being what the original author had intended.
The legal department from what I was told normally takes 90 days to formulate a Declaration of Emergency, however, in this case where there were so many calls and questions, the rush to issue the Declaration "probably" included misinformation such as the second sentence in Part I, Paragraph B.
I for one have been rather harsh in regard to the department's actions/inactions on this particular credit. In retrospect, and especially since I have witnessed "slip it in at the last minute and no one will notice" mentality of some of the legislators, no wonder the situation has been a fiasco and a nightmare for tax practitioners.
In this instance, I fault the legislators rather than the department. It's time to stop the games and get to work. It remains to be seen how much this will cost the State of Louisiana, but hopefully it will be a good lesson to be learned for the legislators.
I now have to get busy sending out letters to my clients. Ya'll have a wonderful time enjoying the $3,000 refunds. Maybe we can all meet up at Disney World, courtesy of the Louisiana Legislature to celebrate!
The legal department was in between a rock and a hard place as the intent of the original bill was not what was passed by the legislature, however, I have personally seen on other occasions where legislators purposely change a law by adding or deleting a word which in turn changes the original intent of the law...in other words, the actual law that was voted on by the legislature ended up not being what the original author had intended.
The legal department from what I was told normally takes 90 days to formulate a Declaration of Emergency, however, in this case where there were so many calls and questions, the rush to issue the Declaration "probably" included misinformation such as the second sentence in Part I, Paragraph B.
I for one have been rather harsh in regard to the department's actions/inactions on this particular credit. In retrospect, and especially since I have witnessed "slip it in at the last minute and no one will notice" mentality of some of the legislators, no wonder the situation has been a fiasco and a nightmare for tax practitioners.
In this instance, I fault the legislators rather than the department. It's time to stop the games and get to work. It remains to be seen how much this will cost the State of Louisiana, but hopefully it will be a good lesson to be learned for the legislators.
I now have to get busy sending out letters to my clients. Ya'll have a wonderful time enjoying the $3,000 refunds. Maybe we can all meet up at Disney World, courtesy of the Louisiana Legislature to celebrate!
Posted on 5/3/12 at 1:38 am to Roofdog
quote:not true. Natural gas Civics or propane fleet vehicles cannot run on gasoline.
THERE IS NO VEHICLE IN THE WORLD SOLD AT RETAIL THAT COULD NOT ALSO RUN ON GAS IN AN EMERGENCY
Posted on 5/3/12 at 7:51 am to frb1951
quote:
E85 Flex Fuel vehicles definitely qualify for the credit. File those amended returns!
Well done frb!
Posted on 5/3/12 at 8:32 am to frb1951
frb, did you ask for this in writing?? Also, can you tell us who you spoke with regarding this wonderful news!?!?
Posted on 5/3/12 at 9:42 am to DuckSlayer22
Posted on 5/3/12 at 9:50 am to LSUalum2000
Roofdog, read the last paragraph on the link above. You need to call that number man~!
This post was edited on 5/3/12 at 9:55 am
Posted on 5/3/12 at 9:53 am to LSUalum2000
That's almost comical to read
It's a copy pasted answer to every single question
It's a copy pasted answer to every single question
Posted on 5/3/12 at 10:48 am to Croacka
I've e-mailed the legal department again after reading bulletin No. 12-025. There appears to be a conflicting date as to the date these vehicles can be purchased. R.S. 47:6035 states "applicable to amounts paid after January 1, 2009" and the bulletin has July 9, 2009.
HOWEVER, when you go to ACT NO 469, the entire bill that was signed into law, on the last page, G., Section 3. states: The provisions of this Act shall be applicable to amounts paid by the taxpayer on and after January 1, 2009.
I will post their response when I get it.
HOWEVER, when you go to ACT NO 469, the entire bill that was signed into law, on the last page, G., Section 3. states: The provisions of this Act shall be applicable to amounts paid by the taxpayer on and after January 1, 2009.
I will post their response when I get it.
Posted on 5/3/12 at 10:56 am to frb1951
My contacts at the LCPA office said they are working on a tax alert to send out on this topic as well...will be interesting to see what they come up with.
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