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Trent and Dale The Early Years

Posted on 12/16/11 at 12:09 pm
Posted by Tom Bronco
Austin, TX
Member since Jun 2011
2650 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 12:09 pm
For those who have wanted to fire Trent Johnson for the last two years, a dose of reality. A little history first for you younger guys. LSU was NEVER a basketball power before Dale Brown. Oh there were the Bob Petit years and the Pete Maravich years where we got some attention because we had two of the greatest players to ever play the game. Those were two exceptions in a sea of mediocrity.

Even then LSU never went to the NCAA tournament during the Maravich years. The best we got was the NIT his senior year.

I love Dale Brown. He single handedly made basketball popular in Louisiana. Everyone remembers his middle years of success and his latter years of scandal and failure but hardly anyone remembers his early years and how long it took him to field a winner. Here is his record during those years.

Season Overall SEC Rank
1972-1973 LSU 14-10 9-9 5th
1973-1974 LSU 12-14 6-12 8th
1974-1975 LSU 10-16 6-12 7th
1975-1976 LSU 12-14 5-13 9th
1976-1977 LSU 15-12 8-10 5th
1977-1978 LSU 18-9 12-6 3rd
1978-1979 LSU 23-6 14-4 1st NCAA Sweet 16

As you can see it took him six years to have a winning SEC record. And instead of showing improvement he actually went down in SEC wins in the four years following his first season where he broke even.

According to the you have to win in three years crowd and at least have to show improvement, Dale would have been fired after his 4th season.

Here is Trent's record so far.
Season Overall SEC Rank
2008–2009 LSU 27–8 13–3 1st NCAA 2nd Round
2009–2010 LSU 11–20 2–14 6th (West)
2010–2011 LSU 11–20 3–13 6th (West)
LSU: 49–48 18–30

So Trent had immediate success unlike Dale but then fell to lower depths than Dale ever did although his 75-76 five SEC wins came close. What does any of this prove? Not a lot because times, circumstances and the game were a lot different in those days. Maybe it shows it is hard to win if you are an LSU basketball coach.

Just putting a little perspective in all of those fans who expect
instant success from a coach in a highly competitive sport where it is hard to recruit unless you are one of the elite top ten schools.

And in response to one poster who wanted to know why we weren't on the same level as a Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas etc. because they had to have advanced to that level at some point and so could we if we just did the same things. Those programs have been powers in basketball almost since the beginning of the sport. They have had great teams year in and year out for 60 years or so. With all that success and publicity, of course they get the elite players.

How do you compete with that? The same way Dale did it with a lot of hard work, perseverance and yes, a little bit of luck also. What if Dale hadn't run into a 14 year old Shaq on that Army post in Germany? The team might have been a lot worse if he hadn't been here those three years don't you think?

So yes I would love a winner also but being as old an LSU basketball fan as I am I also know how hard it is. Trent has gotten a lot of unfair criticism and some that is right on.

I do think he has tried his best and worked extremely hard. Do I wish he had more of an outgoing personality like Dale and realized that he has to do more to promote the sport here. Yes, most certainly. Do I often not like the way his team plays. You bet! I don't think he does either. How much of that is x and o's coaching and how much the players is open to discussion.

Ultimately a coach is responsible for both. The bottom line is winning as in any sport. But at least give him the rest of this year and next year if it goes better this year. Believe me when I tell you that there isn't a coach available who will come in and have consistent long term success right away. Just doesn't work that way.
Posted by VegasPro
Vegas
Member since Aug 2011
2706 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 12:22 pm to
What were both programs like when each took over? How was the talent level in La when each took over? What amount of La recruits actually chose to go elsewhere when each were coaching early to when they were after a couple seasons?

These are the questions that you have to answer to fully exert the point you are trying to make.
This post was edited on 12/16/11 at 12:23 pm
Posted by I-59 Tiger
Vestavia Hills, AL
Member since Sep 2003
36703 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 12:57 pm to
quote:

The best we got was the NIT his senior year.


You realize only one team from a conference could go to the NCAA tourney until 1975,right ? The 1969-1970 team would have easily made the tourney in the current format.
Posted by Tom Bronco
Austin, TX
Member since Jun 2011
2650 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 12:59 pm to
quote:

What were both programs like when each took over? How was the talent level in La when each took over? What amount of La recruits actually chose to go elsewhere when each were coaching early to when they were after a couple seasons?

These are the questions that you have to answer to fully exert the point you are trying to make.


I think I addressed that.
quote:

What does any of this prove? Not a lot because times, circumstances and the game were a lot different in those days. Maybe it shows it is hard to win if you are an LSU basketball coach.



But to answer one of your questions. The quality of Louisiana basketball players was quite high in those days. And they all went somewhere else. At first it was because they were all black and LSU sports was still segregated. But later on Dale still had trouble getting the top Louisiana recruits. They went to Georgetown, Michigan, Texas, etc.

It wasn't until his 76-77 recruiting class that he got some quality local players. Top among those was Ethan Martin and Hi C Carter, both from Baton Rouge. But most of Dale's best recruits were from other states or indeed other countries. Rudy Macklin was from Kentucky. Shaq was from Texas. Chris Jackson from Mississippi. John Williams from Los Angeles. Ice Reynolds from the Bronx, New York. Ricky Blanton from Florida. He got players from Europe, Australia, Russia, Africa, hell anywhere he could find them.

It's not like the football team. You can't just get the best from the state and have good teams. Louisiana basketball talent has never been that good. The Big Baby years were the exception not the rule.
Posted by nicholastiger
Member since Jan 2004
42333 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 3:33 pm to
I hope Trent proves us wrong and can get this program to a consistent NCAA bid with an occasional run every 4/5 years with a NIT in a down year.

With that said, watching that team last night and the lack of fundamentals and poor decision making is directly related to coaching. That type of effort won't cut it in SEC play.
Posted by chimneylooker
Nashville
Member since Sep 2011
561 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

What were both programs like when each took over? How was the talent level in La when each took over? What amount of La recruits actually chose to go elsewhere when each were coaching early to when they were after a couple seasons?


This.

Dale Brown took an LSU team who played in a barn and made them relevant. Trent took a team 2 years removed from the Final Four. I don't think LSU fans realistically expect a Final Four team every year but is a winning record too much to ask?
Posted by saintsfan92612
Taiwan
Member since Oct 2008
28842 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 3:41 pm to
<----
Posted by RushTigerLimbaugh
Member since Dec 2009
1284 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 3:53 pm to
Coach Rabenhorst called, he wants his basketball success back.

Posted by jdg91878
Do overs+Opinion poll politics =MNC
Member since Oct 2010
3742 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 4:17 pm to
Tl; dr

Trent needs to win this year. This isn't the Dale brown era. We live in a results oriented society. I for one would like to see LSU good at basketball again. If Trent cannot produce in year 4, he needs to be shown the door.
Posted by Tom Bronco
Austin, TX
Member since Jun 2011
2650 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:11 pm to
quote:

Dale Brown took an LSU team who played in a barn and made them relevant. Trent took a team 2 years removed from the Final Four. I don't think LSU fans realistically expect a Final Four team every year but is a winning record too much to ask?



And Trent took what was left of those final four players and with the addition of a junior college guard won the SEC! If the program was in such good shape having been to a Final Four two years previous, why did we fire Brady?
Posted by Tom Bronco
Austin, TX
Member since Jun 2011
2650 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:19 pm to
quote:

Coach Rabenhorst called, he wants his basketball success back.


Hey, I'm 64 and I don't remember those teams. Give us a post and tell us about them, I would like to know.
Posted by Bubba Hotep
Member since Nov 2003
9330 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:22 pm to
Dumb thread. Neither has anything to do with the other.
Posted by Choctaw
Pumpin' Sunshine
Member since Jul 2007
77774 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:23 pm to
to be honest....i never thought Dale was that great of a coach either. Great ambassador, Great recruiter, decent coach
Posted by Jaketigger
Baton Rouge Area
Member since Feb 2008
5064 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:26 pm to
I was there for Dale's years as a kid and college and after. I gotta say that Dale had something trent doesn't - the gift of gab.
LSU was UNKNOWN when Dale was there. That is not the case with Trent.
He took a shite load of talent that was developed by someone else to the tournament then wasted the recruiting process.
Sorry - Gotta firmly disagree with your assessment. WAY WAY Off base.
Posted by jr33
Member since Jan 2010
1229 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:26 pm to
quote:

And Trent took what was left of those final four players and with the addition of a junior college guard won the SEC! If the program was in such good shape having been to a Final Four two years previous, why did we fire Brady?

Good question, I could not figure out why we fired JB when we did. I truly thought we fired him because we had some big name coach already hired. To fire him with 8 games to go with one of the best players in the league sitting out the whole year was a joke at LSU. It was time for JB to go but we could have at least waited till the end of the year. LSU was dogged by all bb people throughout the country for firing him when we did. Comparing dale brown to Trent Johnson is for losers, TJ fell into a dream situation with the players he was left and did absolutley nothing to build on an SEC championship. Him not recruiting his first two years is unheard of in college bb and now we are seeing the results of his doing nothing his first two years. Here we are in his fourth year and we are praying to get in the NIT. Tj should have been fired last year, last years team was probably the worst LSU bb team ever put on the floor. TJ is a very nice guy and nice guys finish last, two years in a row and possibly three after what I have seen so far.
Posted by stapuffmarshy
lower 9
Member since Apr 2010
17507 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:30 pm to
this comparision is irrelevant

the world of college athletics changes yearly. I WANT to support TJ and want him to be successful. But I haven't seen it with his guys to this point.

The "Dale" years were easily the best in the history of the program. Slow start and rough end but the 15-20 years in between were great.

No one expects LSU basketball to dominate. But it should certainly compete yearly within the SEC and challenge for March madness runs almost yearly. It's been done before and it was a great ride, hope it happens again in my lifetime but I don't see it with the current guy
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76170 posts
Posted on 12/16/11 at 5:34 pm to
quote:

Louisiana basketball talent has never been that good

This is shocking to me, bc it would seem like good basketball players come from the same demographic as good football players, which La has plenty of.
Posted by Tom Bronco
Austin, TX
Member since Jun 2011
2650 posts
Posted on 12/19/11 at 3:21 pm to
quote:

quote: Louisiana basketball talent has never been that good This is shocking to me, bc it would seem like good basketball players come from the same demographic as good football players, which La has plenty of.


Well that is the reason. Any athlete six foot to six five that can run and jump is either going to be a defensive back or a split end in Louisiana. Very few choose to concentrate on basketball.

Think of Mathieu as a point guard, Ruben Randle as a shooting guard, or Mingo as a small forward, maybe Chase Clement as a power forward. They are such great athletes that if they had spent their spring and summers in a gym instead of a football field they would probably be great basketball players as well.
Posted by Rudy40
Baton Rouge,La
Member since Jan 2007
2781 posts
Posted on 12/19/11 at 4:03 pm to
To get any where near filling the PMAC you need a winning team playing and exciting brand of basketball and a dynamic coach promoting his team!

Dont see any of those descriptions fitting Trent or his coaching!
Posted by CarRamrod
Spurbury, VT
Member since Dec 2006
57426 posts
Posted on 12/19/11 at 4:14 pm to
quote:

Trent took a team 2 years removed from the Final Four.
with no young talent.
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