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So much for a conceal carry permit stopping NICS delays...

Posted on 7/11/17 at 3:54 pm
Posted by cdaniel76
Covington, LA
Member since Feb 2008
19699 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 3:54 pm
So I've heard for years that if you get a conceal carry permit that you shouldn't get delayed on background checks anymore. I've seen it mentioned here and heard it from others also.

Well, I got my permit earlier this year and just went to my local gun store to pick up a built lower I ordered from Palmetto State and nothing was different about the process. Still had to fill out the form completely and a store associate had to run the check via computer. Just like every time I've tried to buy a gun in the last 5 years I got delayed again.

What gives? Is there anyone here that used to get delayed a lot but doesn't now that you have a permit? Is there some other process that is supposed to be used for permit holders and maybe my local gun store is just stuck on the old way?

I've never been denied. Don't have a TWIC. Been out of the country on a cruise twice in my life. No felonies. I always get called a few days later to go get my gun/order...

I know it could be as simple as me having a name that's the same or close to someone else who's got a checkered past but seriously? This is extremely l frustrating! I'm going to file an appeal this time to finally see why it is I keep getting delayed. But it's just as frustrating a process as getting a permit. Have to get a set of finger print cards done and send it in.
Posted by MikeBRLA
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2005
16448 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 4:02 pm to
Your dealer messed up. The CHP doesn't prevent you from getting your NICS delayed,,, instead, with a valid CHP, your dealer shouldn't have even ran the NICS in the first place. See the link below straight from LSP's website. They provide a link so dealers can see if your CHP is valid or not. If it's valid, they don't need to run a NICS check.

LINK
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 4:03 pm
Posted by upgrayedd
Lifting at Tobin's house
Member since Mar 2013
134839 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 4:05 pm to
quote:

Your dealer messed up. The CHP doesn't prevent you from getting your NICS delayed,,, instead, with a valid CHP, your dealer shouldn't have even ran the NICS in the first place.

This.
Posted by cdaniel76
Covington, LA
Member since Feb 2008
19699 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 4:11 pm to
I guess it's up to the discretion of the dealer... Here's the letter that was sent out in 2015 stating that dealers MAY accept a permit... Doesn't state that they have to.

Guess it's time for me to find a new FFL that'll accept the permit.

Posted by civiltiger07
Baton Rouge
Member since Dec 2011
14021 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 4:16 pm to
So you showed them your CCL Permit and they still ran the NICS Check?
Posted by cdaniel76
Covington, LA
Member since Feb 2008
19699 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 4:40 pm to
quote:

So you showed them your CCL Permit and they still ran the NICS Check?


Went in to pick up my transferred item. Dealer told me to start filling out the background form. I asked him if having a conceal carry permit is a different process. He said "No. You need to fill out the form." I mentioned that I had heard that if a person has a permit then a background check doesn't need to be performed as long as the permit is valid and in good standing. All he said was "I need you to fill out the form". I've heard that you still indeed have to fill out the form so I did but then when I was finished he said he'd be right back so I asked him again why he's running a background check even though I have my permit. He said "this is the way we do it here".

If any of you Northshore guys know Sydney at Optimum Outfitters you know he can be ornery and stubborn in a "it's my way or no way" kind of way. So I didn't push any further.

Any recommendations for an FFL in Mandeville/Covington that take a permit and don't charge more than $25?
Posted by TigernMS12
Member since Jan 2013
5530 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 5:03 pm to
He made you do it I guess because he can anyway as a COA type deal plus he doesn't have to worry about the effective date since that was only 2 years ago in LA.

I'd imagine once you get to the point that every permit out there meets that issued by date requirement (if 5 year renewal like MS it would be on March 9, 2020) then you'd see a lot more FFLs let you use them, but I'd be worried until then about an employee not noticing the date and being held civilly liable for selling gun without a background check when it should have been performed.

In MS I haven't had a background check ran on me since I received my CCL, but I've used the same pawn shop to transfer since then and they're good people.
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 5:14 pm
Posted by Propagandalf
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2010
2528 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 5:23 pm to
quote:

"this is the way we do it here".


Like you mentioned they can still do a NICS if they want. However, even if you have a CCP you always have to fill out "the form", aka 4473. One other stipulation is that your CCP cannot be a lifetime permit.

As for the NICS and delays, the NICS is not a database of everyone...it is a database of prohibited or possibly prohibited people. When they run a check they're checking your information against the database for a match or partial match. IMO, the TWIC card thing is a myth as it makes no sense why this action would get you added to the NICS as a prohibited person or questionable person. The stat is likely skewed since Gulf South is a high TWIC card area, so the probability of someone having one in general is high and so it is not unlikely a lot of people that get delayed (for other reasons) would have a TWIC. Also, dealers never randomly ask those who get a proceed if they have TWIC card, so there is nothing to compare the data too. I have seen plenty of people show up in "plant gear" and get immediate proceeds. If you have walked the straight and narrow your whole life your name probably at least partially matches someone else. If it makes you feel better, I have an 07 FFL and 02 SOT, shite and a CCP. The last time I transferred a gun to myself I got delayed, per usual. So, I was in charge of watching the gun while they made sure I was OK to have it.
Posted by Propagandalf
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2010
2528 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 5:29 pm to
quote:

I'd be worried until then about an employee not noticing the date and being held civilly liable for selling gun without a background check when it should have been performed.


You have to write the issue date on the 4473, so it would be hard to miss. Plus, if you are letting that employee do 4473s there are a hundred other ways they could mess it up, for instance, overlooking someone put USA for county instead of their Parish. I don't know how Jim sleeps at night, that shite would drive me insane
Posted by TigernMS12
Member since Jan 2013
5530 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 5:53 pm to
quote:

Plus, if you are letting that employee do 4473s there are a hundred other ways they could mess it up, for instance, overlooking someone put USA for county instead of their Parish. I don't know how Jim sleeps at night, that shite would drive me insane


Yea, but a simple mistake (negligence) like that isn't going to rise to civil liability because it couldn't be seen as the cause of someone else's injury (if they would have gotten the gun even if you did it right, you just made a mistake in form, then no but-for causation). You could get fined or something I guess, but no one's going to successfully sue you for something like that.

You fail to call in a background check when it was supposed to have been called in, that person would have failed the background check, and then kills someone. That's negligence per se and your fricked. If I was running a retail establishment that sold firearms I wouldn't take the chance that an employee had a lapse in memory considering I'm the one that's ultimately liable.
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 6:19 pm
Posted by TigerOnThe Hill
Springhill, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6810 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 7:03 pm to
But if you're a Sheriff's Dept, ATF or FBI, you won't have to worry about any civil liability from an improperly excecuted gun sale.
Posted by TigernMS12
Member since Jan 2013
5530 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 7:10 pm to
quote:

But if you're a Sheriff's Dept, ATF or FBI, you won't have to worry about any civil liability from an improperly excecuted gun sale.


That's not necessarily true. Sovereign Immunity is a complicated issue and one that you could write a book on, so I'll just leave it at that. With that said though, I was speaking of the gun shop owner that actually sold the firearm (or FFL licencee). I'm not aware of the any government agency that in the regular practice of selling firearms.
Posted by Propagandalf
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2010
2528 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 7:14 pm to
quote:

Yea, but a simple mistake (negligence) like that isn't going to rise to civil liability because it couldn't be seen as the cause of someone else's injury (if they would have gotten the gun even if you did it right, you just made a mistake in form, then no but-for causation). You could get fined or something I guess, but no one's going to successfully sue you for something like that.


Oh really? Never underestimate the ATF when they want to frick someone over. LINK

ETA: No one wants the gun used in a crime/negligence especially if there is the slightest clerical error on the 4473.
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 7:18 pm
Posted by Capital Cajun
Over Yonder
Member since Aug 2007
5525 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 7:25 pm to
Did you get the lifetime license? I'm La with the lifetime they still do the call in.

Regardless, you still have to fill out the paperwork.

Here in Texas I fill out the form and they check my ID and CHL and I walk away. No call in required.


ETA

The same shite used to happen to me when I lived in Virginia. I had a CHL and an FFL 03 and got delayed every time. It was a complete pain in the arse.

I don't have any criminal background but they told me that my info matches or closely matches someone who does and someone had to physically check my information.

I was close to requesting a U-PIN from the Feds but I moved out of there.
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 7:40 pm
Posted by TigernMS12
Member since Jan 2013
5530 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 8:17 pm to
Nothing in that article is about civil liability. That was regulartory and criminal liability which I stated could still very well happen; I'm talking a victim or their estate being able to sue for negligence and get damages. There is a law that protects gun owners from personal liability for acts by those they sell guns to, but it only covers legal sales. If you fail to run a background check when you should have and the person goes out and kills someone with a gun they shouldn't have been able to purchase, then that victim can sue you personally for wrongful death due to negligence.

The situation I'm talking about, using the facts of the article you posted, would be if the retailer failed to run a background check, sold the weapon, the background check would have resulted in a denial, and then the purchaser later used it to injure/kill someone. Then, the victim/estate could sue the retailer or the corp/llc if he's incorporated (he would likely be immune from personal liability in that case).

Considering the economic impact of a wrongful death judgment, that's not risk I'm taking no matter how remote the possibility is.
This post was edited on 7/11/17 at 8:25 pm
Posted by shawnlsu
Member since Nov 2011
23682 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 9:00 pm to
quote:

I guess it's up to the discretion of the dealer... Here's the letter that was sent out in 2015 stating that dealers MAY accept a permit... Doesn't state that they have to.


This is how I understood it, its up to the dealer if they run you or not. I would think that most do as a CYA unless they know you personally
Posted by 3deadtrolls
lafayette
Member since Jan 2014
5677 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 9:33 pm to
quote:

the TWIC card thing is a myth


Agreed, I've had a TWIC since it came out and have never been delayed.
Posted by tommy2tone1999
St. George, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6722 posts
Posted on 7/11/17 at 10:41 pm to
It's at the discretion of the FFL holder. BATFE is "recommending" that they still do the check.
Posted by Propagandalf
Baton Rouge
Member since May 2010
2528 posts
Posted on 7/12/17 at 12:18 am to
quote:

Nothing in that article is about civil liability. That was regulartory and criminal liability which I stated could still very well happen; I'm talking a victim or their estate being able to sue for negligence and get damages. There is a law that protects gun owners from personal liability for acts by those they sell guns to, but it only covers legal sales. 


I don't know what you're getting at dude...fricked is fricked and there's 100 ways an employee working for an FFL could frick over the FFL. If you don't have confidence in your employee to be able to handle a CCP dispo then they shouldn't be touching 4473s or the bound book period. It's more about people being set in their way or having asinine policies like Academy not selling you a gun until you get a Proceed from NICS.
Posted by TigerOnThe Hill
Springhill, LA
Member since Sep 2008
6810 posts
Posted on 7/12/17 at 8:37 am to
quote:

But if you're a Sheriff's Dept, ATF or FBI, you won't have to worry about any civil liability from an improperly excecuted gun sale.


That's not necessarily true. Sovereign Immunity is a complicated issue and one that you could write a book on, so I'll just leave it at that. With that said though, I was speaking of the gun shop owner that actually sold the firearm (or FFL licencee). I'm not aware of the any government agency that in the regular practice of selling firearms.



There was plenty of professional misconduct to spread around by numerous governmental agencies in the Dylann Roof gun purchase case. The fact that the various surviving families have not filed a law suit against the government agencies is a testament to the protection these agencies have against civil liability, regardless of sovereign immunity. If they could be sued, many lawyers would've already done it.

We agree that government agencies don't regularly sell firearms, although at least ONE government agency has given away firearms to criminals in another country.
This post was edited on 7/12/17 at 8:11 pm
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