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Message
re: Planned freshwater diversions will doom LA salt fishing
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:14 am to Deege
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:14 am to Deege
Main pass isn't a diversion.
The questions you've asked, other than the main pass question, are all answered in the master plan.
Fwiw, I'd answer that at some point in time, main pass created land. More recently, it has not. You'll say its because of lack of sediment, to which I'll ask where do people get all that dirt they put in their yard every year. You'll mumble incoherently about main pass, to which I'll answer the friggin bonnet carre spillway!
The questions you've asked, other than the main pass question, are all answered in the master plan.
Fwiw, I'd answer that at some point in time, main pass created land. More recently, it has not. You'll say its because of lack of sediment, to which I'll ask where do people get all that dirt they put in their yard every year. You'll mumble incoherently about main pass, to which I'll answer the friggin bonnet carre spillway!
This post was edited on 3/29/13 at 8:18 am
1
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:16 am to Deege
quote:
How does Main Pass differ from a proposed diversion? What land mass has Main Pass created?
I'm not sure what you are asking. The main pass/cubit gap area has created more than 50,000-60,000 acres in the last two centuries and is still thriving with wildlife and seafood. Some areas have gained land. I know because I have hunted it my whole life and my family grew up in Pilottown. Some areas have also lost land. The areas that aren't able to get the sediment or much sediment is where the land was lost for the most part. The recent trevasses they built (in the last ten years) in Main pass and Octave pass have built a good bit of land.
There has also been other land created south of Venice. The river can still create land and with both diversions and dredging a lot should be able to be accomplished. To all those saying dredging doesn't work they are wrong. I have seen lots of land created south of venice in the last 20 years and the land is still there and thriving with wildlife. Yes it sinks over time but it just doesn't dissappear like some are saying. My family actually has cattle on a lot of this land that was dredged. The land is rock hard sand created by the dredging with willow trees, small bushes, thick grass, and mangrove type trees on it.
This post was edited on 3/29/13 at 8:23 am
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:27 am to JasonL79
Thank you Jason.
Finally a direct answer.
Finally a direct answer.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:30 am to Fishhead
quote:
Fwiw, I'd answer that at some point in time, main pass created land. More recently, it has not. You'll say its because of lack of sediment, to which I'll ask where do people get all that dirt they put in their yard every year. You'll mumble incoherently about main pass, to which I'll answer the friggin bonnet carre spillway!
Can someone translate this?
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:35 am to Deege
Another thing that is never talked about is the rocking off of the river from New Orleans down or where ever it starts. I know it was done to keep the shipping channel in check or at least that is what I think. This has also changed the way the river works and builds land. A lot of areas south of Venice are not able to get the sediment because they rocked it off. Between the rocking off of the river, the levees,the dredging of the ship channel, and the river dams up north the river is nothing like it was 200 or more years ago.
This post was edited on 3/29/13 at 8:40 am
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:49 am to Deege
quote:
Thank you Jason.
Finally a direct answer.
The only reason you aren't being obtuse is that you think Jason agrees with you.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:52 am to Deege
quote:
Looking at Wax Lake Delta, I'd posit that the sediment deposited was not from the Mississippi River but more of Atchafalaya swamp soil redeposited. The Mississippi won't have that sediment load.
So you really think the Atchafalaya has a larger sediment load than the Mississippi...got it.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 8:58 am to JasonL79
So, no one has given me an explanation about how Main Pass differs from a planned diversion. Looks by these photos that no land mass has been built in the delta of Main Pass.
So my point is, if Main Pass has not been building land in last fifty years, why will the diversions work?
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:03 am to Deege
Your buddy Jason did in his second post. See rocks.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:05 am to Jester
The river is dredged to provide a deep channel to the end of main pass, which accelerates the flow and dumps the sediment off the shelf. That's another reason.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:07 am to Jester
quote:
The river is dredged to provide a deep channel to the end of main pass, which accelerates the flow and dumps the sediment off the shelf. That's another reason.
So that applies to Main Pass but will not apply to diversions?
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:22 am to Deege
quote:
So, no one has given me an explanation about how Main Pass differs from a planned diversion. Looks by these photos that no land mass has been built in the delta of Main Pass.
No one is giving you an explanation because you are cherry picking examples that meet your agenda, and asking pointed, specific questions to which you think the answer is simple. We could start with the hydrodynamics of the river in that particular river location, dynamics of the marine environment it's discharging into, salinity of the receiving basin (or gulf in the case of main pass), topography/bathymetry of the receiving basin, residence time of the water discharged into the receiving basin to allow sediment to fall out, sediment load within the river channel, and on and on. You could take a college course on each of those topics, so it's a little difficult to give you a direct answer. Each discharge is unique and complex. So my simple answer to your question and comparison is that the multitude of variables at each location is very different.
Each particular diversion is modeled and calibrated using the best available data with input from experts across a broad spectrum of expertise from geography to ecology to numerical modeling to account for all known variables. The locations of the diversions weren't chosen by throwing darts at a map.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:38 am to Jester
quote:
The river is dredged to provide a deep channel to the end of main pass, which accelerates the flow and dumps the sediment off the shelf. That's another reason.
Just an observation but I would think us controlling the path of the river has changed things for good also. If there was no dredged ship channel and no rocks then the land in the area would look a lot different than now. Then again the river might not be going out of Venice if we didn't control it either. We have screwed things up so much.
According to my dad who grew up there, a lot of the marsh behind pilottown and main pass (in the 50-60's) was flotant marsh and was eroded away after hurricane Betsy and Camille. I would think that a lot of this marsh wasn't getting sediment and had been sinking/eroding for a while before that.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:40 am to Deege
Main pass is going off the shelf. The rest of the cost is nowhere close to the shelf.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 9:52 am to Deege
quote:
Ok guys. obfuscate, call me troll, ad hominem, give me homework, say you've answered in previous post, etc. What is obvious, you erudite fellows cannot/have not given a straight forward answer. To me, a person trying to determine where I fall on this issue, you're argument gets emptier as we go.
Hey Jack. We aint here to hold your hand and answer every single question you have. I told you i was going give you some answers after i took care of my FAMILY last night and gave you some info to dig into in the mean time, but you couldnt wait 2 hours. Ten mins later and you are asking the same obtuse questions.
You have just about worn out your welcome.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:04 am to Deege
quote:
So, no one has given me an explanation about how Main Pass differs from a planned diversion. Looks by these photos that no land mass has been built in the delta of Main Pass.
So my point is, if Main Pass has not been building land in last fifty years, why will the diversions work?
I will give this one last shot...
Main Pass/Cubits gap built approx 200 square kilometers of land in about 70 years starting in the 1870's. It reached the peak of land building about the 1930's. It is in the degradation phase. It was so successful at building land, the channels became inefficient at carrying sediment. If you would lift a finger and google sub delta life cycle, you could have figured this out yourself.
No. There has been no major growth in cubits gap in the past century. But as a geologist i woukd not expect there to be any. A diversion would replicate the initial land building stages of the sub delta cycle. Main pass is at the end of the cycle. There is your difference.
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:18 am to JasonL79
Are you related to Mr. Earl?
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:28 am to diplip
I have been called short sighted.
But if Cubit's Gap is in degradation phase, not growing, but subsiding after 150 years, won't formations built by diversions also have a short life?
FASLANYC reports on the Mississippi as a “land-making machine”, vividly illustrated by the case of Cubit’s Gap:
“…let’s consider the case of Cubit’s Gap, a major subdelta of the [Mississippi]. The gap formed in 1862 after an oyster fisherman (Cubit) and his daughters excavated a small ditch in the natural levee between the Mississippi River and the oyster-rich Bay Ronde in order to portage their fishing boat more easily. The following spring floodwater poured through, gouging a crevasse and depositing sediment. Six years later the crevasse was 2,427 feet wide. By 1940 a landmass larger than New Orleans had been created and the Bay Ronde had completely disappeared. Today, the Cubits Gap subdelta is 40,000 acres of national wildlife refuge and is quickly subsiding back into the Gulf of Mexico.”
LINK
But if Cubit's Gap is in degradation phase, not growing, but subsiding after 150 years, won't formations built by diversions also have a short life?
FASLANYC reports on the Mississippi as a “land-making machine”, vividly illustrated by the case of Cubit’s Gap:
“…let’s consider the case of Cubit’s Gap, a major subdelta of the [Mississippi]. The gap formed in 1862 after an oyster fisherman (Cubit) and his daughters excavated a small ditch in the natural levee between the Mississippi River and the oyster-rich Bay Ronde in order to portage their fishing boat more easily. The following spring floodwater poured through, gouging a crevasse and depositing sediment. Six years later the crevasse was 2,427 feet wide. By 1940 a landmass larger than New Orleans had been created and the Bay Ronde had completely disappeared. Today, the Cubits Gap subdelta is 40,000 acres of national wildlife refuge and is quickly subsiding back into the Gulf of Mexico.”
LINK
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:33 am to Deege
quote:
quote:
Fwiw, I'd answer that at some point in time, main pass created land. More recently, it has not. You'll say its because of lack of sediment, to which I'll ask where do people get all that dirt they put in their yard every year. You'll mumble incoherently about main pass, to which I'll answer the friggin bonnet carre spillway!
Can someone translate this?
Translation- you are not really here for answers, you just want to argue, ask obtuse questions, hope somebody will slip up and give you some ammo.
You are not objective. You are not trying to learn.
You stated your position in the OP and thought you would garner some support from this forum. That didnt go how you thought it would, did it?
Posted on 3/29/13 at 10:33 am to Deege
Mike Lane and captain Ricks i'm we'll 870 momentarily. So far today he's threatened to sue me, has named me from rnr, and promised to shut down any website I start lol
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