re: AR 15 for Home Defense

quote:

---

The problem with birdshot for HD is that you're depending on the person's PERCEPTION of pain to stop him/her. If you want to do REAL damage, you need something that will penetrate more than 5 inches.

---

I wouldn't say that birdshot is ideal, however the OP emphasized that he could not penetrate a wall. I think a shotgun is a better home defense weapon than an AR so the stars seemed to align on that one.

And again, it isn't like the defender would be shooting 1 round and then waiting. 5-6 full payloads of #6 hurled down a hallway at someone would tend to do some damage I think.

Good pictures and you have a point. I prefer buckshot for such social concerns.

18.5 gr H110 with 125 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips





When your family's life is on the line, which would you prefer?

quote:

---

300AAC is just plain nasty.

---

quote:

---

I have an AR tricked out with holograph, but the time it takes to get it up and running takes longer than the pistol sitting on the night stand.

---

I came home from Mrs ICS formal at 3:30AM on Saturday and was fairly intoxicated. I got woken up around 4AM by something sounding like it was breaking down the door. I have my AK beside my nightstand, my shotgun under the bed, and my Glock 22 on the nightstand. I grabbed the Glock without hesitating. (The incident turned out to be nothing and was just some kids beating on every door in the complex. In my mind it sounded like 10 of them were tearing the door off the hinges)

quote:

---

I have my AK beside my nightstand

---

Any Optics? I was trying to figure out what the best way to put a Holograph on one was.

quote:

---

my shotgun under the bed

---

For the leisurely intruder.

quote:

---

my Glock 22 on the nightstand

---

Me too...it sits right beside a .45 on the night stand. But don't bring that into the 45/40/9 conversation in the other thread.

quote:

---

Any Optics? I was trying to figure out what the best way to put a Holograph on one was.

---

I have two Aimpoints that I rotate depending on what time of year. Because of the price of ammo, the AK one is now on the .22. It is attached to the AK by a foregrip rail. Its far down the line of sight but works for targets further than 15 yards. But since it is currently bare, it would be decent for HD.

quote:

---

For the leisurely intruder.

---

When the AK has optics, it is beside the nightstand and not under the bed. They go through a rotation. And while a last resort, still loaded.

quote:

---

Me too...it sits right beside a .45 on the night stand. But don't bring that into the 45/40/9 conversation in the other thread.

---

Glock 23 on the nightstand because its 15 + 1 and the .45 1911 stays in the nightstand because its 7 + 1 and the 100 year anniversary of the design. Not a gun that I want to lose to the police. The XDs stays on the kitchen counter. I guess it gives the bad guys something to arm themselves with if they bring anything less.

From The Box of Truth, where they actually shoot stuff.
LINK

quote:

---

Birdshot as a Defense Load

I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round.

Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds. A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down.

He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy.

Birdshot will not do this. In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

---

Box of Truth, Rifles vs Shotguns:

LINK

quote:

---

Lessons learned:

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not. It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls. Now, before anyone says it, No, I do not know how much damage they would do to someone after the 4th wall. But they would do some damage as they were still penetrating.

2. Remington 55 grain JSP and Frangible 5.56 also penetrated all 4 walls. So did the .30 Carbine. When shooting rifles, walls are concealment, not cover.

3. 00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great "Stopping" round, but there is a price to pay. Until someone invents a "Phaser" like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls.

4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs.

Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

Use Birdshot for little birds. Use 00 Buckshot for bad guys.

5. The sun was shining, it was a lovely day, and it was fun shooting stuff.

---

I enjoy the Box O' Truth site and the guys do some real world shooting and document it all.

But I have to disagree with them on this issue.

I lean more toward the carbine with std. capacity mags; the idea of rapid and accurate follow up shots on target, sufficient ammunition capacity to engage multiple targets quickly/efficiently, quick reloads, and female friendly (unlike 12 gauge shotguns).

No, I'll take the carbine with 30rd magazine every time.

YMMV

Thanks for backing me up, WNC.

And Coastie, I agree that birdshot CAN drop a perp's arse dead. But I would rather throw something at him that has a much greater chance of putting him down quickly. As was stated in WNC's article, birdshot is designed for birds and only makes shallow wounds. While they are intense wounds, you are still relying on the person's perception of pain if organs are not hit.

Then again, all these points are moot since you said you prefer a carbine. And I know you have REAL experience to back that one up. The freedom to choose shotgun or carbine is the best thing.

God I love this country.